Homophobia met head on at Rookie Orientation

[Boltman19]

By Jim Trotter
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

July 2, 2006

The nature of the question wasn't surprising. The ignorance behind it was.

Esera Tuaolo, a nine-year defensive tackle who disclosed he's gay two years after retiring in 2000, was appearing at the NFL's annual Rookie Symposium on Monday, the featured speaker at a session titled Diversity & Tolerance Training.

During one of his talks with four groups of 60 or so players, Tuaolo was asked if it's OK to call a gay man a derogatory term. Tuaolo started to answer, then stopped and looked around the conference room at La Costa Resort and Spa.

“The majority of the players were just shaking their heads like, what an idiot,” Tuaolo, 37, said later. “One guy, to tell you the truth, was like, 'I'm glad you're not on our team.' It started out as a negative thing, but it turned out to be a positive thing, if you know what I mean.”

Tuaolo said the question and the intent behind it confirmed that homophobia remains an issue in the NFL. But he quickly added that the response of the majority of the players was affirmation that the league has made progress on the issue.

Chargers quarterback Charlie Whitehurst was in the room when the question was asked, and he called it an “ugly” scene.

“I have tremendous respect for the guy,” Whitehurst said of Tuaolo. “He was kind of living a lie there for a long time, and I guess he had to do it. It definitely must have been tough for him. I think the majority of the players really took to him and accepted the fact that – one thing you learn quickly in the NFL is you don't question anybody who's been there and done it as a player, no matter what it is.”

Tuaolo was Green Bay's second-round draft choice in 1991. He played for five teams over nine seasons, most of them with Minnesota, appeared on one all-rookie squad and participated in the 1999 Super Bowl with Atlanta.

He kept his sexual orientation secret during his career because, he said, he was afraid teams wouldn't accept a gay player. He still believes that's the case, although he said his presence at the rookie symposium is a sign of progress.

“One of the things I wanted to tell the young men is that I'm not here to convert you,” Tuaolo said. “That's the big perception. . . . I told them I'm here to educate you on some of the issues that I faced while being in the NFL and (about) homophobia. I said that anytime you use a word that degrades a human being, it's wrong. . . .

“Homophobia is one of the taboo things in the NFL to be talked about, and I'm just very encouraged that the NFL has included the issue in its diversity program. They definitely can't say it's not there, because here you have a player that plays for nine years in the National Football League, from starter to nonstarter, whatever, and every single time the topic of homosexuality would come up in the NFL when I was there it was never a pretty sight. It was always negative.”

Tuaolo praised Mike Haynes, the league's vice president of player and employee development, for working to bring Tuaolo to the symposium. Since assuming his role four years ago, Haynes has promoted tolerance in every form, be it music, clothing, cultures, backgrounds or sexual orientation.

“Mike Haynes is an incredible man,” Tuaolo said. “He's why this happened. He wants to make a change for the better and he wants to include all issues. That's very promising. We've already had discussions about next year.”

Tuaolo's appearance at La Costa happened to coincide with the recent incident in which Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen called Chicago Sun-Times columnist Jay Mariotti a derogatory term for gays. Tuaolo said the incident supports his contention that professional sports have a long way to go in that area.

“It's amazing to me even nowadays how people don't get it,” he said. “The thing about it is, when he tried to apologize, he tried to say, like, in my country it means something else.”

Guillen is a native of Venezuela.

“Well, you've been in this country for (a lot of) years,” Tuaolo said. “ . . . If you're going to do an apology, then be sincere or sound sincere. It's amazing. It's all about eliminating the negative words.”

That was the theme of Tuaolo's message to the rookies.

“I don't care if it's in a joke,” he said, “because there might be somebody like myself who hears those things, and even with me being as big as I am (295 pounds) and stuff, it hurts.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/nfl/20060702-9999-1s2tuaolo.html



Edit:I also read somewhere on pft, that Lendale White was the player who asked him that question

[TJ21]

Chargers quarterback Charlie Whitehurst was in the room when the question was asked, and he called it an “ugly” scene.

“I have tremendous respect for the guy,” Whitehurst said of Tuaolo. “He was kind of living a lie there for a long time, and I guess he had to do it. It definitely must have been tough for him. I think the majority of the players really took to him and accepted the fact that – one thing you learn quickly in the NFL is you don't question anybody who's been there and done it as a player, no matter what it is.”

Yet more proof that our organization only drafts stand-up guys. A lesser man might have been compelled to snicker along with the rest of the crowd. It shows maturity and dignity on Charlie's part and that shows a lot of excellent drafting qualities on our scouting department's part. :Beer:

[Boltman19]

Haha, I was thinking that too :Bolt:

[TJ21]

I'm so one-minded. I read a whole article about tolerance and only think about how it relates to our team. Ah well... :D

[JoeMcRugby]

It's been reported that the guy who asked the question that led to the "ugly scene" was none other than Lendale White, RB from USC.

[Bolt4Life]

Personally, i don't care if there is a homo in the NFL, just as long as they did what this guy did and announce it after retirement. I would feel ackward being tackled by him. Because we know players are cheapshotting eachother in the piles, but if I knew someone was gay my mind would go from cheapshotting to "OMG he is trying to touch me" LOL. But thats just me.

[BigBadBoltFan]

Don't ya think they workout, train/live close enough to West Hollywood to adjust a little better than that???

[baphamet]

It's been reported that the guy who asked the question that led to the "ugly scene" was none other than Lendale White, RB from USC.

he should have turned around and asked white.. "is it OK to call a black man a derogatory term." maybe then he would have realized what a bone head question that was. :rolleyes:

[mshawn]

Personally, i don't care if there is a homo in the NFL, just as long as they did what this guy did and announce it after retirement. I would feel ackward being tackled by him. Because we know players are cheapshotting eachother in the piles, but if I knew someone was gay my mind would go from cheapshotting to "OMG he is trying to touch me" LOL. But thats just me.

That's kind of a silly, junior high attitude.

Lendale White just continues to distinguish himself as a fine, upstanding citizen.

Regardless of anything else, the fact that White, a rookie, would hurl an insult at a nine-year vet just shows how clueless he truly is, if in fact it was Lendale White who made the comment.

[Bolt4Life]

That's kind of a silly, junior high attitude.

Lendale White just continues to distinguish himself as a fine, upstanding citizen.

Regardless of anything else, the fact that White, a rookie, would hurl an insult at a nine-year vet just shows how clueless he truly is, if in fact it was Lendale White who made the comment.

No rookie should be saying anything bad towards a vet. Especially when you weren't the starter on your team (USC I think?). and if thats "silly attitude", would you want to get tackled over and over by someone you know might think your hot, and is not a chick >.<? Ya, my point exactly. :crazy: :Cheers: :nono: :cool:

[TJ21]

No rookie should be saying anything bad towards a vet. Especially when you weren't the starter on your team (USC I think?). and if thats "silly attitude", would you want to get tackled over and over by someone you know might think your hot, and is not a chick >.<? Ya, my point exactly. :crazy: :Cheers: :nono: :cool:

First of all, how could you not know that Lendale White played at USC? He was the best RB in the rose-ball and has been all over the news for his alleged lack of work ethic. Secondly, no NFL player, or rather, no good NFL player is thinking about anything else but their objective at their respective position. What you think a tackle is? A player jumping on another player? No... it's an attempt to stop the ball-carrier dead in his tracks while also (sometimes) attempting to hit him hard enough to jar the ball loose.

Personally, I'd feel more afraid (that I'm going to get my head knocked off) than awkward. :-/

I do agree with you on one count: a player shouldn't reveal their preference while they're still playing... it'll only alienate them from their teammates and a large majority of your fans.

Lendale can't afford any more bad PR.

[Podium]

No rookie should be saying anything bad towards a vet. Especially when you weren't the starter on your team (USC I think?). and if thats "silly attitude", would you want to get tackled over and over by someone you know might think your hot, and is not a chick >.<? Ya, my point exactly. :crazy: :Cheers: :nono: :cool:


WHAT?!

1. You didn't know he went to USC, but you know he wasn't a starter? When the guy who he shared carries with was the Heisman Trophy winner (and yes he was a starter)

2. It's his fault he's not a starter because he played with Reggie Bush.

3. What does being a starter or not in college have anything to do with what you can and can't say in the NFL? So if he was a starter, he would get more leniency in voicing his opinion about this topic?

4. "Someone you know might think you're hot? Does that sentence even make sense? Point is that these guys are professionals, and if they don't want that to happen, then retire if it they're so against it.

[mshawn]

No rookie should be saying anything bad towards a vet. Especially when you weren't the starter on your team (USC I think?). and if thats "silly attitude", would you want to get tackled over and over by someone you know might think your hot, and is not a chick >.<? Ya, my point exactly. :crazy: :Cheers: :nono: :cool:

It's naive to think that if you don't know, if you just assume that everyone's straight, that you'll never be tackled by a guy who finds you attractive.

The real question is, why does it matter? Gay or straight, you don't make it to the NFL without being extremely focused on the sport of football, especially during the game. No player is going to run around focusing on who's hot and who's not. They are going to focus on winning games.

I think your attitude is shaped by your homophobia. Think about this, if you were playing mixed tackle football, men and women, and an unattractive woman were to tackle you, would you be thinking, "Oh my god, gross. This woman might find me attractive, and she might be enjoying this opportunity to tackle me!"

[SuperBowlBolts]

It's naive to think that if you don't know, if you just assume that everyone's straight, that you'll never be tackled by a guy who finds you attractive.

The real question is, why does it matter? Gay or straight, you don't make it to the NFL without being extremely focused on the sport of football, especially during the game. No player is going to run around focusing on who's hot and who's not. They are going to focus on winning games.

I think your attitude is shaped by your homophobia. Think about this, if you were playing mixed tackle football, men and women, and an unattractive woman were to tackle you, would you be thinking, "Oh my god, gross. This woman might find me attractive, and she might be enjoying this opportunity to tackle me!"
haha good post agree with everything

[HighBoltage]

It's naive to think that if you don't know, if you just assume that everyone's straight, that you'll never be tackled by a guy who finds you attractive.

The real question is, why does it matter? Gay or straight, you don't make it to the NFL without being extremely focused on the sport of football, especially during the game. No player is going to run around focusing on who's hot and who's not. They are going to focus on winning games.

I think your attitude is shaped by your homophobia. Think about this, if you were playing mixed tackle football, men and women, and an unattractive woman were to tackle you, would you be thinking, "Oh my god, gross. This woman might find me attractive, and she might be enjoying this opportunity to tackle me!"
LOL.

I'd rather be playing basketball in the first place.

[Bolt4Life]

It's naive to think that if you don't know, if you just assume that everyone's straight, that you'll never be tackled by a guy who finds you attractive.

The real question is, why does it matter? Gay or straight, you don't make it to the NFL without being extremely focused on the sport of football, especially during the game. No player is going to run around focusing on who's hot and who's not. They are going to focus on winning games.

I think your attitude is shaped by your homophobia. Think about this, if you were playing mixed tackle football, men and women, and an unattractive woman were to tackle you, would you be thinking, "Oh my god, gross. This woman might find me attractive, and she might be enjoying this opportunity to tackle me!"

Why do people always run towards the "homophobic" thing? My god, people need to know what a homophobic is. I have a friend that's a homo. People like you need to figure out when to use the "homophobic" attack :nono:

p.s. mods, we need some of the smily options from the Raider forums :D . Just go troll their forums and you'll see they got some good ones

[Bolt4Life]

WHAT?!

1. You didn't know he went to USC, but you know he wasn't a starter? When the guy who he shared carries with was the Heisman Trophy winner (and yes he was a starter) I barely follow college football but if he didn't go to USC I didn't want to sound stupid. Sorry for insulting your collegefootball knowledge

2. It's his fault he's not a starter because he played with Reggie Bush.

3. What does being a starter or not in college have anything to do with what you can and can't say in the NFL? So if he was a starter, he would get more leniency in voicing his opinion about this topic? Kinda what I'm saying. No rookie has a right to say crap like that, but especially someone who wasn't a starter

4. "Someone you know might think you're hot? Does that sentence even make sense? Point is that these guys are professionals, and if they don't want that to happen, then retire if it they're so against it. How does it not make sense. You are probably reading it one way when it was ment another

Anyone got the link to the UT forums?

[JoeMcRugby]

Kinda what I'm saying. No rookie has a right to say crap like that, but especially someone who wasn't a starter

White was way off base with his statements, but your downplaying of White is just as offbase, Bolt4Life. That's like criticizing Bush among all other rookies coming in because he wasn't a "full-time player".

The fact is that White would have started full-time for any team in the country other than USC which had the most electric RB in college football over the past couple of decades at the same position. He was a finalist for the Doak Walker Award as the nation's best RB (won by Bush) and was an AP 3rd Team All American in 2005. He was a first round talent whose work ethic dropped him down to the second round. The fact that he didn't start for USC didn't mean anything in that room since every other RB except for one wouldn't have started either.

White left USC as a junior as the all-time TD leader for the Trojans - which includes such nobodies as Mike Garrett, OJ Simpson, Ricky Bell, Charles White, Marcus Allen, etc.

[rammerjammer]

My head is about to explode from some of the posts in this thread. I am not even going to begin to touch it. All I can say is that I am glad that this has turned into a positive experience for him, and I hope that he is able to persuade the rest of the league to think with a more open mind and be tolerant of others. After all, it would be pretty boring if everyone were the exact same, wouldn't it?

[JCDavey]

My head is about to explode from some of the posts in this thread. I am not even going to begin to touch it. All I can say is that I am glad that this has turned into a positive experience for him, and I hope that he is able to persuade the rest of the league to think with a more open mind and be tolerant of others. After all, it would be pretty boring if everyone were the exact same, wouldn't it?i wonder if ********ity or nambla members have ever looked at it like that haha

[Bolt4Life]

White was way off base with his statements, but your downplaying of White is just as offbase, Bolt4Life. That's like criticizing Bush among all other rookies coming in because he wasn't a "full-time player".

The fact is that White would have started full-time for any team in the country other than USC which had the most electric RB in college football over the past couple of decades at the same position. He was a finalist for the Doak Walker Award as the nation's best RB (won by Bush) and was an AP 3rd Team All American in 2005. He was a first round talent whose work ethic dropped him down to the second round. The fact that he didn't start for USC didn't mean anything in that room since every other RB except for one wouldn't have started either.

White left USC as a junior as the all-time TD leader for the Trojans - which includes such nobodies as Mike Garrett, OJ Simpson, Ricky Bell, Charles White, Marcus Allen, etc.
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Well I don't follow college football at all so I wouldn't know. I only slightly follow UCLA and Purdue because I am going to be playing football for one of them

[JoeMcRugby]

There are several all gay rugby teams playing around the world - including the Bay Area (the San Francisco Fog).

I played against a guy from the collegiate national championship Cal team when he was playing for the Olympic Club in San Francisco that turned out to be gay. No way that you could tell playing him or talking with him after the match was over.

It turns out that before his death, he told his former Cal teammates about his "coming out" - and they all supported him.

About his death? Mark Bingham was one of the leaders of the passengers of United Flight 93 who took down the terrorists before they could turn the hijacked plane into another bomb blowing up in Washington DC.

You'll never find a braver man in the world than Mark Bingham.

Rest in peace, Mark!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bingham

[TJ21]

Now why would the National Marlon Brando Look Alike club even care? :D


Nothing like a good South Park reference to lighten the mood, ey DS. :Beer:

As for the rest of your post, I agree. It's absolutely ridiculous to think a player would be any more "scared" of a gay linebacker than he would a straight linebacker.

Like I said before though, we live in a time where sports players and fans aren't as tolerant as ideally desired, it would unfortunately be a bad Public Relations move for a player to announce he's gay... I know it's sad that public relations plays a role lifestyle decisions, but it's also the reality.

[KeepRivers06]

Personally, i don't care if there is a homo in the NFL, just as long as they did what this guy did and announce it after retirement. I would feel ackward being tackled by him. Because we know players are cheapshotting eachother in the piles, but if I knew someone was gay my mind would go from cheapshotting to "OMG he is trying to touch me" LOL. But thats just me.


Haha this is so childish I couldn't help but laugh.

I wrestled a girl in high school and threw her on her head before I pinned her. I would have done that to any person regardless of gender or sexual orientation. People say business isn't personal. Sports are the same way. Your objective is to beat any other person in the way of your success. I'll take a championship trophy over some girl's number any day. If you expect to play college football you better get your head into the game and not into how cute the other guy on the team is.

[JoeMcRugby]

The gay teammate may have such urges and I think that's the biggest fear for all atheletes.

It may be their fear, but it is totally offbase and without any factual foundation.

Do you really believe gays are just starting to play in the NFL, MLB, or NBA? Gays have been participating in sports since the Greeks introduced the Olympics almost three mileniums ago.

Have the "urges" manifested themselves over the history of sports? I don't remember TE Jerry Smith from the Redskins squads of the late 60s and early 70s exhibiting such behavior on or off the field with his teammates.

The problem is that it is uneducated stereotypical reactions and fears of such "urges" that keep gay athletes in the closet.

The "urges" don't exist on the field than anywhere else in society. It's a job.

[Stone]

Personally, i don't care if there is a homo in the NFL, just as long as they did what this guy did and announce it after retirement. I would feel ackward being tackled by him. Because we know players are cheapshotting eachother in the piles, but if I knew someone was gay my mind would go from cheapshotting to "OMG he is trying to touch me" LOL. But thats just me.

I really hope you're kidding, or else you're making LenDale White look like a scholar.

[Bolt4Life]

So true. So true. :Beer:


Let me ask this question about the girl on the wrestling team. This may come out funny, but it's a serious question: Was she cute?

I ask this because attraction cannot be controlled. If she was the hottest girl you ever did see, with hooters the size of linebackers, I know your objective would be to win the match, but the scenario can be disctracting. Not saying a guy would masturbate during a match with a girl, but in most cases the issue of sex would come up in the brain, albeit briefly, randomly, occasionally or frequently.

I can see what you're saying about the goal at hand (championship) vs. the urge to ask her out as she's being pinned. But atheletes are afraid that guys will look at them funny or give them that slap on the butt and let the hand linger on the cheek for an extra second or two.

The gay player may have such urges for his teammate and I think that's the biggest fear for all atheletes. It's kinda silly when you really think about it.

Just so you know your going to be called a "homophobic" and "childish" for this by all the people who are always right on these forums. :rolleyes: . But I agree with both your posts

[mshawn]

Why do people always run towards the "homophobic" thing? My god, people need to know what a homophobic is. I have a friend that's a homo. People like you need to figure out when to use the "homophobic" attack :nono:

p.s. mods, we need some of the smily options from the Raider forums :D . Just go troll their forums and you'll see they got some good ones

You can have a friend that's a "homo" and still be homophobic.

My grandmother was the biggest racist I've ever met, and she had a couple of black friends. She liked them because they were completely subserviant to her.

If you are afraid that a gay football player might be tackling you "in that way" because he's gay, that's almost the definition of homophobia. You are frightened, threatened even, by his homosexuality.

[JCDavey]

i never understood why people compare gays to blacks.

In my opinion it's 100% normal to think the gay lifestyle is completely disgusting and evil, but at the same time, doesn't mean you should treat them like they aren't human.

[Bolt4Life]

You can have a friend that's a "homo" and still be homophobic.

My grandmother was the biggest racist I've ever met, and she had a couple of black friends. She liked them because they were completely subserviant to her.

If you are afraid that a gay football player might be tackling you "in that way" because he's gay, that's almost the definition of homophobia. You are frightened, threatened even, by his homosexuality.

But the problem is, Im not frightened or threatened by homosexuality, I just think its disgusting (especially when I was at disney land I saw 2 guys locking lips... and tongues) :nono:

[Pot Roast]

I find it odd this fear that a football player that is gay would be "coming on" to another player, when obviously the facts show this isnt the truth.
Fact is all people, regardless of their preference, can control their sexual urges, one way or another. If you can post here that you cant, to prove this point wrong, then I really recommend some serious couch time because that seriously isnt healthy.. Sex is an instinctual drive, yes, but as in all the drives in humans, we have inhibitors for them; conscious, subsonscious and genetic.

[Merrimanjersey]

i never understood why people compare gays to blacks.

In my opinion it's 100% normal to think the gay lifestyle is completely disgusting and evil, but at the same time, doesn't mean you should treat them like they aren't human.Hey JCDavey, I think we agree about something for once in our lives. If I was black, I would be offended whenever they compare gays and black people, it is apples and oranges. Being black talks about somebodies skin color, gay talks about someones urges and many times their behavior. So it is not the same thing at all.

If someone has urges, that doesn't necessarily mean they are justified in acting on them. We all have urges that are bad and morally wrong. I have an urge to go confront opposing fans when they come into the Q. I also know that me acting on those urges is morally wrong because I should treat people with respect. In the same way I shouldn't act on those urges, I believe people with homosexual urges shouldn't act on those urges either. I believe doing so would be morally wrong in the same way I think NAMBLA members behavior is wrong. I have a moral opinion, it doesn't make me a bigot. The term homophobic belongs in the rederic hall of fame. If making a moral stand makes me homophobic, then I am also petifileaphobic, ********ityaphobic and incestaphobic and I would venture to say that 99% of the posters on here are also. Just because somebody attachs "phobic" on the end of a behavior doesn't make the behavior morally right.

hetero-only-a-phobic, how about that one, is it fair? Of course it isn't, neither is homophobic, so lets drop the reteric. I know its not that easy to drop the reteric, it is so ingrained in our country, the media and hollywood have drilled it into everyones head by now, I just hope people see how wrong that line of thinking is.

I still disagree with whoever made that comment at the combine, people should be treated with respect just because they are human. That's what tolarence really means. It means that we can disagree but yet still reaspect each other. It doesn't mean we have to accept any behavior anybody does as morally right.

[KeepRivers06]

So true. So true. :Beer:


Let me ask this question about the girl on the wrestling team. This may come out funny, but it's a serious question: Was she cute?

I ask this because attraction cannot be controlled. If she was the hottest girl you ever did see, with hooters the size of linebackers, I know your objective would be to win the match, but the scenario can be disctracting. Not saying a guy would masturbate during a match with a girl, but in most cases the issue of sex would come up in the brain, albeit briefly, randomly, occasionally or frequently.

I can see what you're saying about the goal at hand (championship) vs. the urge to ask her out as she's being pinned. But atheletes are afraid that guys will look at them funny or give them that slap on the butt and let the hand linger on the cheek for an extra second or two.

The gay player may have such urges for his teammate and I think that's the biggest fear for all atheletes. It's kinda silly when you really think about it.


She wasn't that attractive, but I stand by my statement I'll take a championship over a girl's number any day. I'd rather have a super bowl ring than go on a date with Jessica Alba. I just think there is a different mentality going into sports than a sexual one. There's something primal about hitting a guy into the ground as hard as you can while you're stopping him from scoring against you. There's something primal and animal about running down a defender trying to stop you from scoring.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when I'm playing sports I'm in a completely different mindset than when I'm at the bar trying to get a girl to go home with me.

If you're too involved with who is hot and who is not during sports you're not keeping your head in the game. You'll end up getting your head knocked off. I don't know about any of you but sex is the last thing on my mind when I'm on a field. Well, except for baseball, but then again I played outfield.

[mshawn]

Hey JCDavey, I think we agree about something for once in our lives. If I was black, I would be offended whenever they compare gays and black people, it is apples and oranges. Being black talks about somebodies skin color, gay talks about someones urges and many times their behavior. So it is not the same thing at all.

If someone has urges, that doesn't necessarily mean they are justified in acting on them. We all have urges that are bad and morally wrong. I have an urge to go confront opposing fans when they come into the Q. I also know that me acting on those urges is morally wrong because I should treat people with respect. In the same way I shouldn't act on those urges, I believe people with homosexual urges shouldn't act on those urges either. I believe doing so would be morally wrong in the same way I think NAMBLA members behavior is wrong. I have a moral opinion, it doesn't make me a bigot. The term homophobic belongs in the rederic hall of fame. If making a moral stand makes me homophobic, then I am also petifileaphobic, ********ityaphobic and incestaphobic and I would venture to say that 99% of the posters on here are also. Just because somebody attachs "phobic" on the end of a behavior doesn't make the behavior morally right.

hetero-only-a-phobic, how about that one, is it fair? Of course it isn't, neither is homophobic, so lets drop the reteric. I know its not that easy to drop the reteric, it is so ingrained in our country, the media and hollywood have drilled it into everyones head by now, I just hope people see how wrong that line of thinking is.

I still disagree with whoever made that comment at the combine, people should be treated with respect just because they are human. That's what tolarence really means. It means that we can disagree but yet still reaspect each other. It doesn't mean we have to accept any behavior anybody does as morally right.

It's also not easy to spell the rhetoric.

Your sexuality is a fundamental part of who you are. Obviously, child molestation is wrong, because it is an instance of an adult forcing their sexual urges on a helpless child. It's rape. Child rape is not comparable to the sexual acts of consenting adults.

As a gay man, I don't feel I ever had more of a choice about my sexuality than someone does the color of their skin. I've known I was gay since I was seven years old, long before sex entered the picture. Now, I could have denied it. I could have suppressed it. I could have married a woman, had kids and lived a lie. But to do that would have been admitting there's something wrong with who I fundamentally am, and there is not.

Wake up people. Homosexuality is not a disease or a disorder. It's part of the natural order of things. I'm sorry some of you are so threatened by that.

There are far more important things in this world than where a guy sticks his dick.

[JCDavey]

It's also not easy to spell the rhetoric.

Your sexuality is a fundamental part of who you are. Obviously, child molestation is wrong, because it is an instance of an adult forcing their sexual urges on a helpless child. It's rape. Child rape is not comparable to the sexual acts of consenting adults.

As a gay man, I don't feel I ever had more of a choice about my sexuality than someone does the color of their skin. I've known I was gay since I was seven years old, long before sex entered the picture. Now, I could have denied it. I could have suppressed it. I could have married a woman, had kids and lived a lie. But to do that would have been admitting there's something wrong with who I fundamentally am, and there is not.

Wake up people. Homosexuality is not a disease or a disorder. It's part of the natural order of things. I'm sorry some of you are so threatened by that.

There are far more important things in this world than where a guy sticks his dick.i'm not threatened by it , i'm just a christian lol, you believe what you want and i'll do the same :Beer:

[Stone]

I am also a Christian, but I remember that Jesus asked us to love one another just like the Father loves us. That's why I don't gay bash. I may not agree morally with the choice, but if you're cool, you're down with me for life.

I went out with the only female wrestler in my old high school. She used to get bashed a lot. I hated that, especially since she was taking on a challenge and was mocked for it.

[JCDavey]

I am also a Christian, but I remember that Jesus asked us to love one another just like the Father loves us. That's why I don't gay bash. I may not agree morally with the choice, but if you're cool, you're down with me for life.
exactly ...

[Merrimanjersey]

Your sexuality is a fundamental part of who you are. Obviously, child molestation is wrong, because it is an instance of an adult forcing their sexual urges on a helpless child. It's rape. Child rape is not comparable to the sexual acts of consenting adults.I will agree with you that petifilia is worse then homosexuality, my point is to say that there are sexual behaviors that are wrong. Now that we have established that "anything doesn't go", maybe we can figure out which things don't go and which things do go. You said two consenting adults? What about brother and sister? Cousin and Cousin? 80 year old man and 20 year old woman? I don't think those are ok. Just because two people consent doesn't automatically make it right either.

As a gay man, I don't feel I ever had more of a choice about my sexuality than someone does the color of their skin. I've known I was gay since I was seven years old, long before sex entered the picture. Now, I could have denied it. I could have suppressed it. I could have married a woman, had kids and lived a lie. But to do that would have been admitting there's something wrong with who I fundamentally am, and there is not.I don't know why some people have gay tendencies and some don't. It could be because of some type of molestation or other child abuse. It could be because there was no strong father figure for a boy and the boy somehow is looking for that? For a woman, a woman may have been hurt by a man, so she has been soured from men. It could be someone looking for identity, someone just looking for love, it could be an unknown reason, it could be a hundred different reasons.
I think given the right environment, anyone could develop gay tendencies. I've read about people who overcame those tendencies and went on to happy heterosexual relationships. Those are stories you won't hear on the evening news or in movies. How they did it I am not sure, but I would assume it had something to do with changing their thinking habits, changing their self-image. It's not healthy for a guys masculinity to be the woman in a physical relationship. It's like in prison when the guys rape the other guys and call them their b####'s. That is horrible for that person and just because it is consentual in gay relationships I don't think that is much less damaging. Guys weren't meant to be half man/half woman. But that's what they are in physical relationships. Neither were women made to be that way.

Wake up people. Homosexuality is not a disease or a disorder. It's part of the natural order of things. I'm sorry some of you are so threatened by that.I don't think it is natural at all, it is completely unnatural, the anus wasn't made for input, it was made for output. Man and woman is natural. I'm not threatened by it, I just think it is wrong and bad for the people who practice it. Also I am genuinely concerned for people engaging in homosexual activity, not just for their emasculation, but because it is dangerous for health reasons. Men practicing homosexuality live an average of 42 years, that is not good. It doesn't have to be like that.

[Pot Roast]

I will agree with you that petifilia is worse then homosexuality, my point is to say that there are sexual behaviors that are wrong. Now that we have established that "anything doesn't go", maybe we can figure out which things don't go and which things do go. You said two consenting adults? What about brother and sister? Cousin and Cousin? 80 year old man and 20 year old woman? I don't think those are ok. Just because two people consent doesn't automatically make it right either.

I don't know why some people have gay tendencies and some don't. It could be because of some type of molestation or other child abuse. It could be because there was no strong father figure for a boy and the boy somehow is looking for that? For a woman, a woman may have been hurt by a man, so she has been soured from men. It could be someone looking for identity, someone just looking for love, it could be an unknown reason, it could be a hundred different reasons.
I think given the right environment, anyone could develop gay tendencies. I've read about people who overcame those tendencies and went on to happy heterosexual relationships. Those are stories you won't hear on the evening news or in movies. How they did it I am not sure, but I would assume it had something to do with changing their thinking habits, changing their self-image. It's not healthy for a guys masculinity to be the woman in a physical relationship. It's like in prison when the guys rape the other guys and call them their b####'s. That is horrible for that person and just because it is consentual in gay relationships I don't think that is much less damaging. Guys weren't meant to be half man/half woman. But that's what they are in physical relationships. Neither were women made to be that way.

I don't think it is natural at all, it is completely unnatural, the anus wasn't made for input, it was made for output. Man and woman is natural. I'm not threatened by it, I just think it is wrong and bad for the people who practice it. Also I am genuinely concerned for people engaging in homosexual activity, not just for their emasculation, but because it is dangerous for health reasons. Men practicing homosexuality live an average of 42 years, that is not good. It doesn't have to be like that.

One thing that should be clear about your post. this is Opinion. Correct?
you have no factual evidence, scientific data to back up really much of what you say. Now, I dont have a problem with opinions. the fact is though, your opinions shouldnt be mistaken for factual evidence.
I really am not going to get into this debate any further: the reason is I see no reason. using Belief; or doctrine (an imposed set of rules) vs science ( an ever changing method of thought based on discovery) never works.

[JoeMcRugby]

Alright.

I think this thread has gone far enough. Different views have been posted and I don't want it to deteriorate into something that isn't really appropriate for a football team's website.

There are plenty of other message boards where this subject can be debated in more detail.

Cool? :Bolt: