PDA

View Full Version : What is the essence of the Norv Turner (SD Chargers) offense?


LABoltsFan
07-14-2008, 01:57 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece.

GameTime
07-14-2008, 02:16 PM
Hopefully we will have more players where the defense has fewer players...A very simplistic formula for success but it works every time.

Marty was often conservative when the situation called for bold plays, while Norv seems to like to attack the defense with the unexpected...that is except the first play of the game...up the middle for little or no gain.

In any event, we fans should be the last to know what his offensive strategy will really be this year. It's all conjecture based upon a perceived reality.

LightsOut4ever
07-14-2008, 02:19 PM
Run game to set up passing down field. (both WRs had 15+ YPC), esp. the PA pass.

GoMathews
07-14-2008, 02:26 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece.

Martyball has nothing to do with the design of the offense. Rather, it was the ultra conservative approach of calling safe plays.

Cam called the plays but Marty would advise him to run the ball out. These plays were very similar to what Norv had installed into this offense several years ago.

LightsOut4ever
07-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Martyball was also the in-pads batterings taking place during practices that wore players down (which he eased up on/eliminated during LT's MVP year) -- Mike Tomlin has a similar approach, which has led many analyst to believe that coupled w/their tough schedule, could very well keep them (PIT) out of the playoffs.

JtBoY20
07-14-2008, 06:37 PM
It took a while before the players got used to Norv Turner's system. But they eventually bought into it and finished strong extending their playoff run to the AFC Championship Game. This year I think we can expect a more stronger start to the season. With the first 5 games against non-playoff teams the team could easily go 5-0, 4-1 or 3-2. I don't think it should matter whats the team's record just as long they're good enough to get to the playoffs and then thats when the teams should play real good playoff football and Norv Turner showed that he doesn't choke in playoff games. He may not be a successful head coach during the regular season but he knows what it means to this team to win a title.

Might I add, if LT, Gates were both healthy the Chargers could of beaten New England.

Xenos
07-14-2008, 06:54 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece.
Running up the middle to wear down defenses, and the playaction.

sonorajim
07-14-2008, 07:00 PM
He's going to get the ball in LT's hands more often than any other single player after Rivers.
He'll try to maintain approx 50/50 run/pass.
He's going to mix it up. SD can play whatever offense Norv believes will win vs the current opponent.

JoeMcRugby
07-14-2008, 07:03 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece.

What you saw in the postseason is what the essence of Norv's offensive scheme involves (even without LT and Gates for the most part): a physical ground game mixed with play-action passes down the field (not necessarily bombs away, but stretching the field) to stressed defenses focusing on stopping the run.

Once the offensive line solved its problems from the first 10 games to give PR enough time to get the ball off & PR gained confidence in his reads and trusted his WR's abilities to make the plays downfield, the explosive component of the offensive scheme finally came around.

Look for that to be expanded in 2008 - along with more running room when defenses realize that they'll get killed quickly if they commit all-out to stop LT.

The multitude of toys that Norv has to play with (Hester, Nanee, Davis, Sproles) will allow Norv to give defenses all kinds of pre-snap read headaches with multiple formations and personnel packages.

That doesn't mean that the base plays will change much (if at all), but formations and sending men in motion can cause indecision with the defense in how to react - and indecision, no matter how brief, will kill NFL defenses.

foober
07-14-2008, 07:26 PM
Norv's pretty much got it right. He's looking for mismatches. What problem he's having with the chargers offense is the o-line has had trouble at times giving the qb time to throw. They fix that and we'll win the super bowl easy.

So much talent on this chargers team now.

Sundiego
07-14-2008, 07:28 PM
Part of Norv Turner's offense is from the Coryell offense (although he has his own Tweak as well):

I got some of my info about it here, although there are probably better sites for this:

The WCO has the following characteristics:

It is a "ball-control" offense, predicated on the ability of the QB to achieve a high completion percentage
The receivers often run precise short-to-intermediate routes and a lot of crossing routes and slants. The receivers are expected to pick up yards after the catch
The QB takes more 3- and 5-step drops as opposed to 7-step drops
When the QB and WRs are on the same page, it can be difficult to disrupt the rhythm of the offense
It relies heavily on the receiving skills of backs coming out of the backfield The Coryell offense has the following characteristics:

It is a "stretch-the-field vertically" offense, predicated on the complementary effects of throwing deep and running the football
The receivers often run intermediate-to-long routes
The QB takes more 5- and 7-step drops
It emphasizes maximum pass protection, to protect the QB until the receivers get open downfield
It is committed to the power running game. The running game opens up opportunities for big downfield completions, and vice versa.http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

Additionally: "The "Air Coryell" Offense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Coryell) was originated by Don Coryell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Coryell) and adopted by his assistant coaches including Joe Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs), Jim Hanifan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Hanifan), and Ernie Zampese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Zampese). The offense features a power running game similar to that of former University of Southern California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Southern_California) head coach John McKay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McKay). What has made this offense popular is the ability to stretch the field vertically with the passing game and its numbered pass routes. The Cincinnati Bengals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Bengals), Detroit Lions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Lions), Miami Dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins), San Diego Chargers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Chargers), San Francisco 49ers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_49ers), Washington Redskins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins), and the University of Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Maryland%2C_College_Park) are among those who run this type of offense. Teams famed for running this scheme in the past include the Washington Redskins (when the team won three Super Bowls in 1982, 1987, and 1991), the Dallas Cowboys (during the 90s under offensive coordinator Norv Turner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norv_Turner)), the San Diego Chargers and the St. Louis Rams during their Greatest Show on Turf days of the 1999-2001 seasons."

Norv Turner utilizes more established plays and routes. He wants his players to know the basic routes and expands from there. Once they get that down there is some leeway for them to change it. Say they are being bumped at the line (which has hurt this type of offense in the past) and are "thrown off it". With Norv's system this can happen and they still have an ability to run the slightly change route.

It relies on the running game to open up the passing game, and vice versa. It is good to have a power back in the game. The receivers then run different routes. Some run short, some run long. He wants to put pressure on a defense by forcing them to pick their poison. They can't defend against the vertical game AND the running game. He throws in trick plays, specialized players who can do multiple things, and switches things around. Gates lining up as a WR and at the TE is just one example.

PGHChargerfan
07-14-2008, 07:40 PM
It is a West Coast offense centered around LT as opposed to, say, the WCO centered around Emmitt Smith or Jerry Rice. It's the same system.

You remember what Jerry Rice and Rickey Watters did to the Bolts in SB 29? Remember what Aikman, Irvin, and Smith did to the Bills x2? This is what to expect from the Bolts. Pretty cool, eh?

LABoltsFan
07-14-2008, 08:05 PM
Part of Norv Turner's offense is from the Coryell offense (although he has his own Tweak as well):

I got some of my info about it here, although there are probably better sites for this:

The WCO has the following characteristics:
It is a "ball-control" offense, predicated on the ability of the QB to achieve a high completion percentage
The receivers often run precise short-to-intermediate routes and a lot of crossing routes and slants. The receivers are expected to pick up yards after the catch
The QB takes more 3- and 5-step drops as opposed to 7-step drops
When the QB and WRs are on the same page, it can be difficult to disrupt the rhythm of the offense
It relies heavily on the receiving skills of backs coming out of the backfieldThe Coryell offense has the following characteristics:
It is a "stretch-the-field vertically" offense, predicated on the complementary effects of throwing deep and running the football
The receivers often run intermediate-to-long routes
The QB takes more 5- and 7-step drops
It emphasizes maximum pass protection, to protect the QB until the receivers get open downfield
It is committed to the power running game. The running game opens up opportunities for big downfield completions, and vice versa.http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html

Additionally: "The "Air Coryell" Offense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Coryell) was originated by Don Coryell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Coryell) and adopted by his assistant coaches including Joe Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs), Jim Hanifan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Hanifan), and Ernie Zampese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Zampese). The offense features a power running game similar to that of former University of Southern California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Southern_California) head coach John McKay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McKay). What has made this offense popular is the ability to stretch the field vertically with the passing game and its numbered pass routes. The Cincinnati Bengals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Bengals), Detroit Lions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Lions), Miami Dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins), San Diego Chargers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Chargers), San Francisco 49ers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_49ers), Washington Redskins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins), and the University of Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Maryland%2C_College_Park) are among those who run this type of offense. Teams famed for running this scheme in the past include the Washington Redskins (when the team won three Super Bowls in 1982, 1987, and 1991), the Dallas Cowboys (during the 90s under offensive coordinator Norv Turner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norv_Turner)), the San Diego Chargers and the St. Louis Rams during their Greatest Show on Turf days of the 1999-2001 seasons."

Norv Turner utilizes more established plays and routes. He wants his players to know the basic routes and expands from there. Once they get that down there is some leeway for them to change it. Say they are being bumped at the line (which has hurt this type of offense in the past) and are "thrown off it". With Norv's system this can happen and they still have an ability to run the slightly change route.

It relies on the running game to open up the passing game, and vice versa. It is good to have a power back in the game. The receivers then run different routes. Some run short, some run long. He wants to put pressure on a defense by forcing them to pick their poison. They can't defend against the vertical game AND the running game. He throws in trick plays, specialized players who can do multiple things, and switches things around. Gates lining up as a WR and at the TE is just one example.

great post!:LightsOut:

it is an adaptive offense... and LT is the perfect fit!

i see why intelligent players are key, and why PR says that the system has a "sandlot" feel. The receivers and QB must have great rapport or the QB would get killed as things "adjust"

i can see why Norv has the reputation of "calling the right play at the right time"... after a few tests, you can start to see tendencies, and with a full arsenal, the "gut feeling" usually prevails...

Texas lightning
07-14-2008, 08:05 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece. It's about keeping defences on thier toes. Martyball was too predictable it works good during the regular season then come playoff time they had it all figured out that's part of the reason he's had a bad playoff record with NORV you think you have his gameplan down and he goes and pulls somthing entirely differant out of his bag of tricks JUST WATCH this season you'll start to see what I mean and now that PR and the boys have gotten more in tune with him I BELEIVE IT WILL START TO WORK FOR US.

JOJAX85
07-14-2008, 08:13 PM
The multitude of toys that Norv has to play with (Hester, Nanee, Davis, Sproles) will allow Norv to give defenses all kinds of pre-snap read headaches with multiple formations and personnel packages.

My thoughts exactly! With all the weapons he has I think his philosophy is this:

"We can beat you with ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, at ANYTIME!"

This is gonna be fun!!

foober
07-14-2008, 08:40 PM
It's about keeping defences on thier toes. Martyball was too predictable it works good during the regular season then come playoff time they had it all figured out that's part of the reason he's had a bad playoff record with NORV you think you have his gameplan down and he goes and pulls somthing entirely differant out of his bag of tricks JUST WATCH this season you'll start to see what I mean and now that PR and the boys have gotten more in tune with him I BELEIVE IT WILL START TO WORK FOR US.

I think you may have it about right. NOrv trys to set up the opposing team. He shows one thing for a while. And then when you expect the same thing Norv will pull a fast one on you.

Those not so smart runs up the gut on first downs are a bit much. Then were sitting at 2nd and 9 or 10 as usual. Go wild on first down. Make some yards. If the opposing team doesn't know whats coming they're the ones in trouble.

But to be honest. There is so much fire power on this chargers team they just ought to come out firing. To heck with setting up for surprising the other team. Just spread the ball around. In that way no team will be able to set up in any way how to stop them.

Still got to have the o-line more solid though for it to really work well.

JoeMcRugby
07-14-2008, 08:56 PM
It is a West Coast offense centered around LT as opposed to, say, the WCO centered around Emmitt Smith or Jerry Rice. It's the same system.

You remember what Jerry Rice and Rickey Watters did to the Bolts in SB 29? Remember what Aikman, Irvin, and Smith did to the Bills x2? This is what to expect from the Bolts. Pretty cool, eh?

The WCO featuring Emmitt Smith? :confused: The Cowboys didn't run the WCO.

The Bill Walsh-based offensive scheme featuring Jerry Rice and Rcky Waters is the polar opposite of the Don Coryell-based Aikman, Irvin and Smith.

With the Chargers in 2008, you'll get what you saw from Aikman, Irvin and Smith from Norv Turner's Cowboys offensive scheme, not the 49ers offense of Bill Walsh.

electr1c
07-15-2008, 12:59 AM
expect to see more 3 wr sets and h backs this year, and many more single back formations. norv likes to keep the entire field fair game and maintaining the threat of an over-the-top throw to ease up the run game. we tend to run left a lot too, though not really by choice.

this is not a west coast offense, i doubt norv will ever have 15 pre-scripted plays regardless of down/field position like bill walsh did.

IceBowlBoltsFan
07-15-2008, 01:37 PM
I think they do best when the follow the KIS principle (Keep It Simple):

Give it to Tomlinson; throw it to Gates.

Sundiego
07-15-2008, 03:11 PM
I am actually one of the only Pats fans who will freely admit that. However, you must keep in mind that we also play up (or down: see Ravens, Baltimore) to the level of our opponents. If your offense started to move the ball more and more, I'm sure our's would have too. Can't wait for October 12th!

Phillip Rivers was injured as well. Not only was he more immobile than usual and in a lot of pain he wasn't able to plant his leg or even step into throws. That is why his QB rating was so low compared to the year before and the the previous playoff games.

r3con
07-15-2008, 04:04 PM
No his knee wasnt blown out the entire season... But we had a lot of o-line inconsistancies for the first 10 games or so that prevented Rivers from being able to find his guys. The biggest problem was his blind side and his inability to dodge incoming rushes from his front.

Thunderstruck
07-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Rivers' QB rating was pretty low all of 2007. Surely his knee wasn't blown out for 17 weeks, was it?

New head coach, new offensive coordinator, and he lost both of his starting wide receivers from the year before.

So, yeah... he struggled a little bit. It's like people think that because Rivers was a pro-bowler in his first year as a starter that nothing could cause him to strugge. He had a lot of hurdles thrown at him last year, and not the least of which was the fact that he wasn't all that experienced.

swarm
07-15-2008, 05:21 PM
RunRunPassPunt

JOJAX85
07-15-2008, 06:14 PM
RunRunPassPunt

How bout: RunScore. PassScore. RunPassScore. PassRunScore. GoHomeWithAWin.

FutbolAmericano
07-15-2008, 06:19 PM
New head coach, new offensive coordinator, and he lost both of his starting wide receivers from the year before.

So, yeah... he struggled a little bit. It's like people think that because Rivers was a pro-bowler in his first year as a starter that nothing could cause him to strugge. He had a lot of hurdles thrown at him last year, and not the least of which was the fact that he wasn't all that experienced.

What got to me was the fact that the center to QB connection was broken for awhile for some reason. Then, it got fixed.
Remember all of those failed transfers?
I remember Madden making an angry comment during a telecast that every high school offense can do this consistently.
I suspect this was part of the growing pains with the new coaching staff, even though this was not broken the previous year.

FutbolAmericano
07-15-2008, 06:24 PM
great post!:LightsOut:

it is an adaptive offense... and LT is the perfect fit!

i see why intelligent players are key, and why PR says that the system has a "sandlot" feel. The receivers and QB must have great rapport or the QB would get killed as things "adjust"

i can see why Norv has the reputation of "calling the right play at the right time"... after a few tests, you can start to see tendencies, and with a full arsenal, the "gut feeling" usually prevails...

Yes, great post.
It seems like our offense would be kept in check for the first half. Then pick-up late in the third and fourth quarter. It is like the wore down the defense more that their O wore down our D.
Remember the Tennessee game (wild card) and the Colts game (div playoff). They were both worn out in 4th quarter.
Maybe the strategy is just spread the field and make them challenge you.

JoeMcRugby
07-15-2008, 06:26 PM
Rivers' QB rating was pretty low all of 2007. Surely his knee wasn't blown out for 17 weeks, was it?

In addition to the reasons listed by others (still inexperienced, pressed too hard to make big plays early in the season, major o-line struggles, 2 new starting WRs and a new more complicated offensive system - although related to the less complicated Cam Cameron system), let's first quantify "pretty low".

Although admittedly not as good as 2006 - mainly due to the interceptions that he largely avoided that year: 82.4 is "pretty low"?

In Tom Brady's first year as the starter (2001), he posted an 86.5 passer rating - a little lower than PR's 92.0 in 2006.

In Brady's 2nd year as a starter (2002), he posted an 85.7 as compared to PR's 82.4 in 2007.

As "bad" as PR's second season as a starter was, his passer rating of 82.4 wasn't "pretty low" IMO.

CHARGERSDOC
07-15-2008, 07:48 PM
RunRunPassPunt
are you even a football fan? Watch some games, man.

desertswo
07-15-2008, 08:23 PM
In addition to the reasons listed by others (still inexperienced, pressed too hard to make big plays early in the season, major o-line struggles, 2 new starting WRs and a new more complicated offensive system - although related to the less complicated Cam Cameron system), let's first quantify "pretty low".

Although admittedly not as good as 2006 - mainly due to the interceptions that he largely avoided that year: 82.4 is "pretty low"?

In Tom Brady's first year as the starter (2001), he posted an 86.5 passer rating - a little lower than PR's 92.0 in 2006.

In Brady's 2nd year as a starter (2002), he posted an 85.7 as compared to PR's 82.4 in 2007.

As "bad" as PR's second season as a starter was, his passer rating of 82.4 wasn't "pretty low" IMO.

Just to follow-up on what Joe has so ably said thus far, Brett Favre, who has everybody wrapped around the axel with his latest drama queen act, has a lifetime QB rating of 85.7. Joe Montana’s was 92.3, but he had plenty of years when he was in the low to mid-80s. Ditto Brady; his rating last year when they were running it up on people was 117.2. The rest of the time he has been mostly in the mid- to high-80s. In fact, disaggregate the data and leave last season out and Brady’s lifetime rating is a “pretty low” 81.9. Dan Fouts, who most revere around here, was “only” 80.2, and Stan Humphries, the only quarterback to actually get the Chargers to a Super Bowl was a rather “abysmal” 75.8. There are players on the “worst all-time quarterback list” with ratings in that general vicinity, but no one here would put Stan in that category. At the end of the day, the only statistic that most coaches and GMs care about is winning percentage; Philip Rivers’ is .722 (including post-season). While I want a championship as much as the next guy, after a lifetime as a fan (46 years of my 52 years thus far) enduring numerous 4 and 12 or worse campaigns, a .722 winning percentage suits me just fine.

As far the essence of Norv Turner’s offense, it is simply this; look up at the scoreboard at the end of the game, and if the Chargers are in the win column, that is the essence, and the real fans and aficionados here will know that it isn’t just about the offense, and that it truly is a symbiotic relationship between offense, defense and special teams. The Chargers have been blessed in recent years with pretty fair kicking games; usually winning the battle of field position. The unsung hero there being Mike Scifers. Guys like him ARE NOT a dime a dozen and he is worth whatever he is being paid. The defense if healthy can hang with anyone, including the Minnesota Vikings (oh how I wish we could take a mulligan on that game and have Peterson meet Jamal and company on good legs . . . but that won’t happen for a while, short of a Super Bowl match-up), and consistently supports the offense, and the offense takes what the defense and the special teams gives them and does whatever is necessary to put it in the end zone. Norv will take whatever the opponent’s defense gives them and then exploit it. Nothing magical or earth shattering; it’s basic and as old as the game itself.

usnidc
07-16-2008, 04:33 AM
WCO offense is "death by a thousand wounds". Seeing Montana and Rice pick defenses apart was a thing of beauty. Defenses just couldn't defend against them when they were on.

A Turner offense is more of a "set them up with a bunch of jabbs then knock them out with a left hook" type of offense.

desertswo
07-16-2008, 10:04 AM
WCO offense is "death by a thousand wounds". Seeing Montana and Rice pick defenses apart was a thing of beauty. Defenses just couldn't defend against them when they were on.

A Turner offense is more of a "set them up with a bunch of jabbs then knock them out with a left hook" type of offense.

Good analogy. I like it!:D

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-16-2008, 11:57 AM
WCO offense is "death by a thousand wounds". Seeing Montana and Rice pick defenses apart was a thing of beauty. Defenses just couldn't defend against them when they were on.

A Turner offense is more of a "set them up with a bunch of jabbs then knock them out with a left hook" type of offense.
Let’s hope we are left-handed.

usnidc
07-16-2008, 12:14 PM
Let’s hope we are left-handed.

The abbreviation for LEFT is "LT":layup

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-16-2008, 12:20 PM
The abbreviation for LEFT is "LT":layup
And the abbreviation for a powerful right is PR.
So, I guess we are ambidextrous.

desertswo
07-16-2008, 12:28 PM
Let’s hope we are left-handed.

Interestingly enough, most teams are. The Chargers certainly are; running as they do most often behind McNeil and Dielman on the left side.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-16-2008, 12:34 PM
Interestingly enough, most teams are. The Chargers certainly are; running as they do most often behind McNeil and Dielman on the left side.
Is that due to most QBs being right handed and having to protect their blind side with the better players on that side?

IceBowlBoltsFan
07-16-2008, 12:46 PM
Is that due to most QBs being right handed and having to protect their blind side with the better players on that side?


Yes, it is.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Yes, it is.
Some day, parents will wise up and start teaching their kids to be equally proficient with both hands. We will see tennis players serving in the deuce court with their right arms and in the ad court with their left arms and QBs who can throw with either arm equally well. Baseball pitchers who win 30 games a year. 15 with each arm.

edit: I am already equally proficient with either hand at _well, never mind_.

desertswo
07-16-2008, 12:57 PM
Is that due to most QBs being right handed and having to protect their blind side with the better players on that side?

Yup, pretty much. Also, if you look at the way a field is configured (somewhat less so in the pro- than in the high school or college games), the hash mark near which the ball is usually spotted by the officials is to the right of the formation in the direction of travel (kind of like driving on the right side of the road unless you live in the UK), thus putting the wider side of the field to the left; like so (http://quamut.com/quamut/football/page/how_to_break_down_a_football_play.html). It doesn't happen in every case but teams will often go "strong left," or barring that, run or throw left to the weak side of the formation in order to exploit that wider side of the field.

charger1_sj
07-16-2008, 01:54 PM
Yup, pretty much. Also, if you look at the way a field is configured (somewhat less so in the pro- than in the high school or college games), the hash mark near which the ball is usually spotted by the officials is to the right of the formation in the direction of travel (kind of like driving on the right side of the road unless you live in the UK), thus putting the wider side of the field to the left; like so (http://quamut.com/quamut/football/page/how_to_break_down_a_football_play.html). It doesn't happen in every case but teams will often go "strong left," or barring that, run or throw left to the weak side of the formation in order to exploit that wider side of the field.

Hmmm, I not sure I get what your refering to. If a play is blown dead between the hash marks that's where it's snapped from on the next play. If the play is blown dead outside of the hash mark, then the ball is placed on the hash mark on the side where the play was blown dead. Thus a run to the offenses left that ends up out of bounds would place the ball for the snap on the next play on the left hash mark. Thus running to the left would leave the wide side of the field to the right. A run to the right favors leaving the wide side of the field to the left.

It seems counter to what your trying to say. But maybe I don't understand your point.

RMANCIL
07-16-2008, 02:56 PM
After 1 year, i still dont quite have a grasp on what the Norv Turner offense is all about. I've heard it favors Mid Range strikes, balance and a strong running game....

Obviously, it favors match up issues, but fundamentally what is the philosophy? What is the flavor? What makes it tick?

Martyball was all about being statistically safe and relied on sound fundamentals (ball control, clock management, etc) and a strong running game.....

It seems that it favors many options and possibilities per play. i recall PR saying that while Norv's a stickler for guys running routes perfect in practice, he wants guys to "adapt accordingly" in the game and as a result gives a "sandlot" feel.

What will we see this year as Norv completes his offensive masterpiece.


The term "Marty Ball" was earned over many years of playing both field position along with strong clock management and conservative play calling. Schotenheimer earned that reputation more from his time with the Browns and the Chiefs rather than S.D.

Marty pretty much turned over the offense and the play calling to Cam Camron who had worked with Norv Turner in Washington . The Charger offense was installed by Turner before Schottenheimer came on board to be the head man.

Clearly Schottenheimer influenced Cameron's play calling to some degree however just how much will never be known it is fair to say that the Chargers offense was simplified for Rivers after Brees left however that did change about the half way point of that campaign. Some fans blame Schottenheimer going to a run game vs the Pats in S.D. in the playoffs when they were up by two scores and thus the rebirth of the " Marty Ball " label.

Cam Cameron's offense and Turners offense while technically the same differ in that Turner offense calls more meduim too deep passing routes that put more pressure on the QB both from a read as well as from a physical stand point.

Turners offense does tend to try and punish defenses that load the box by going over the top more often. Camrons on the other hand seemed to attempt to hit the TE between the LB and the safety more often or throw to LT in the flat.

SF under Walsh ran what is refered to these days as the west coast offense which isn't what the Chargers have ever ran. The WCO basicly uses short passes to move the ball much like other offense's use the run. The idea being extremely quick timing routes with a lot of balls going to RB including FB who tend to excel at catching and pass blocking.

OL skills are all about pass blocking and very little power run blocking.

On the left hand right hand offense here is a heads up for you most teams use to feature the TE on the right side of the formation thus making it traditionally the strong side. Most RB are also right handed thus this would feature the ball carrier carrying the ball in his right hand as well.

Most defenses feature their quickest pass rusher from the left side or the QB blind side if you will. Traditionally WDE are more pass rushers and less run stuffer's.

The Chargers for several years have ran more effectively to their left which has to slow pass rushers down particularly seeing how often the Chargers trap block with their ROG.


Hope that long winded post helps.

LABoltsFan
07-16-2008, 04:10 PM
...

Clearly Schottenheimer influenced Cameron's play calling to some degree however just how much will never be known it is fair to say that the Chargers offense was simplified for Rivers after Brees left however that did change about the half way point of that campaign. Some fans blame Schottenheimer going to a run game vs the Pats in S.D. in the playoffs when they were up by two scores and thus the rebirth of the " Marty Ball " label.

Was this more because we were limiting PR's ability to cause damage as he was a 1 year "new" QB? (Much like how Pittsburg limited the offense for Big Ben's during his 1st year.)



Cam Cameron's offense and Turners offense while technically the same differ in that Turner offense calls more meduim too deep passing routes that put more pressure on the QB both from a read as well as from a physical stand point.

Turners offense does tend to try and punish defenses that load the box by going over the top more often. Camrons on the other hand seemed to attempt to hit the TE between the LB and the safety more often or throw to LT in the flat.

is this mainly due to Gates, or a fundamental approach by Cameron?


The Chargers for several years have ran more effectively to their left which has to slow pass rushers down particularly seeing how often the Chargers trap block with their ROG.


Is there any correlation between this and that VJ lines up on that side, and usually Manu? or is that simply following the play's design?

RMANCIL
07-16-2008, 09:31 PM
Was this more because we were limiting PR's ability to cause damage as he was a 1 year "new" QB? (Much like how Pittsburg limited the offense for Big Ben's during his 1st year.)

The " book " says that if you have the best RB in the game and a green QB and your up by two scores you make the other team beat you. The Book never figures in stupid personal fouls along with fumbled ints.

is this mainly due to Gates, or a fundamental approach by Cameron?


Gates was / is the best TE in football and the WR lacked real down field speed from the starters. Jackson by and large was extremely green at that time. Shorter passes are much higher pct of completions and quick simple patterns took a lot of pressure off the QB.

Rivers and the offense struggle during the 1st half of 2008 before waking up in Jax last season.

Is there any correlation between this and that VJ lines up on that side, and usually Manu? or is that simply following the plays design?

The Chargers on average don't line up Manu more on the left side than the right nor do they Jackson. It has been my observation that they tend to be rather neutral as for as te/ wr tendencies. The Chargers under Camron ran more elephant formations with over loads to the left however it was Dielman who usually lined up as the TE on the left side. That play also featured a unbalanced line. I never saw any traps with that formation.

I know that the quick counter trap sets up the passing game creating a split second hesitation from DL who shoot the 3 hole between LOG and LOT. Mike Goff lays wood on the power "o". A unsuspecting DL would be seeing stars.

It sounds like the Charger offense for 2008 will feature more of a H- Back role like the Redskins have used under Gibbs of late and like Ross ran with the Bolts. Hester may be featured in this type of role. Pinock is also a much better receiver and more of a threat as a runner than Neal was.

We may not see very much of the "offset I " RB formations as a result.

The H- back role features a lot more motion it allows the offense to get a quick read on the defense as for as man or zone types of coverage . The H- back can also in effect take up two defenders as he must be covered on potential pass routes yet he can come back into the formation with motion and perform a slam or wham block or fake the block and speed out the backside into a pass route.

PGHChargerfan
07-18-2008, 07:45 AM
You know, all this talk about the names/styles of offense schemes has me thinking... how many different names can you give for playing the game of football?

It still boils down to 'pass' or 'run'. To a player, the system matters because of the focus on how much he can contribute in a game, but for the coaches, it comes down to a philosophy of Xs versus Os.

If it's a passing game focus, it starts with Sid Gillman, plain and simple. The rest of the discussion goes from there.

If it's a running game focus, it goes all the way back to what Walter Camp did with rugby and how Red Grange and Jim Thorpe defined the early RB position to George Halas' imprint on the ground game style. Of course, not too many players play both sides of the ball anymore. ;)

So, whatever the style or its colorful name, it all goes back to the guys I just mentioned.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 08:05 AM
The running game probably goes back to the days when the first humans banded together and developed strategies and techniques for hunting food and fighting off predators.
That is if you believe in that kind of “beginnings” for mankind.
Then they discovered rocks, and later, spears and the like, and the passing game became a possibility.

IceBowlBoltsFan
07-18-2008, 10:31 AM
The running game probably goes back to the days when the first humans banded together and developed strategies and techniques for hunting food and fighting off predators.
That is if you believe in that kind of “beginnings” for mankind.
Then they discovered rocks, and later, spears and the like, and the passing game became a possibility.

I think you are right, football was the first sport and the foundation for civilization. It went something like this:

One hot August day the men of a tribe were slaughtering a pig and the women were grinding grain and mixing it with water to make a kind of cereal. One man removed the pig's bladder, blew it up and tied the end to make a ball. He didn't know what to do with it so he threw it to another man. Another guy wanted the ball so he taclked the guy with the ball who fumbled and all the men jumped on to the scrum to get the ball. This attracted the attention of the women so they gathered around to watch the game. Liking this attention from the women, the men continued to play until they were half exhausted so they declared a "half-time" to rest and asked the women for some water. The women realized that they had used all the water to make cereal and that the cereal had spoiled and turned to beer. Since it was the only thing available the women gave the beer to the men. Obviously, the second half was not as good as the first but this was the world's first sporting event and the beginning of civilization.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 11:05 AM
I think you are right, football was the first sport and the foundation for civilization. It went something like this:

One hot August day the men of a tribe were slaughtering a pig and the women were grinding grain and mixing it with water to make a kind of cereal. One man removed the pig's bladder, blew it up and tied the end to make a ball. He didn't know what to do with it so he threw it to another man. Another guy wanted the ball so he taclked the guy with the ball who fumbled and all the men jumped on to the scrum to get the ball. This attracted the attention of the women so they gathered around to watch the game. Liking this attention from the women, the men continued to play until they were half exhausted so they declared a "half-time" to rest and asked the women for some water. The women realized that they had used all the water to make cereal and that the cereal had spoiled and turned to beer. Since it was the only thing available the women gave the beer to the men. Obviously, the second half was not as good as the first but this was the world's first sporting event and the beginning of civilization.
Interesting. So your theory states that the pass predates the running game, if only by a few seconds.

And then August turned into September and so on, into the Yule season, and the temperature plummeted to a -59 degree wind chill factor, and the men found that passing the ball became extremely difficult no matter how much fermented cereal they consumed or how thick they grew their beards.

Then the women began to move around to keep warm and the first cheerleaders were born. The tribe realizing that they could not play all year round where they were, began to look for warmer year round climates, and mankind became nomadic and eventually populated the entire earth.

God was wise when he/she created the pig.

LABoltsFan
07-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Interesting. So your theory states that the pass predates the running game, if only by a few seconds.

And then August turned into September and so on, into the Yule season, and the temperature plummeted to a -59 degree wind chill factor, and the men found that passing the ball became extremely difficult no matter how much fermented cereal they consumed or how thick they grew their beards.

Then the women began to move around to keep warm and the first cheerleaders were born. The tribe realizing that they could not play all year round where they were, began to look for warmer year round climates, and mankind became nomadic and eventually populated the entire earth.

God was wise when he/she created the pig.

so the founding forefathers decided it was best to "pass to set up the run".

(maybe that's because LT only wears lightning bolts and not leopard skins?)

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 03:31 PM
so the founding forefathers decided it was best to "pass to set up the run".

(maybe that's because LT only wears lightning bolts and not leopard skins?)
That’s my theory.

And since they wore skins in the old days before the founding forefathers, they were known as the founding foreskins.

Ouch; I’m sorry I posted that.

Texas lightning
07-18-2008, 09:59 PM
actully the first forward pass rule was intoduced at yale in 1906 by walter camp this initally became caotic in a game that was played more like rugby where camp was trying to install a more stratigic form of play so it also led to the 4downs for ten yrds rule in1912 which allowed for a more complex system of offencive plays.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 10:11 PM
actully the first forward pass rule was intoduced at yale in 1906 by walter camp this initally became caotic in a game that was played more like rugby where camp was trying to install a more stratigic form of play so it also led to the 4downs for ten yrds rule in1912 which allowed for a more complex system of offencive plays.
Yeah, that’s the problem with the world. Eventually, people take control and rules are devised and introduced. Before you know it, in come the rule breakers and that is swiftly followed by policemen, politicians, governments, borders, neighbors, natural enemy countries and eventually alien invasion from space to cleanse the planet and start anew.

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 10:14 PM
Yeah, that’s the problem with the world. Eventually, people take control and rules are devised and introduced. Before you know it, in come the rule breakers and that is swiftly followed by policemen, politicians, governments, borders, neighbors, natural enemy countries and eventually alien invasion from space to cleanse the planet and start anew.

whoa whoa whoa whoa

when's the last time THAT happened???

And why didn't I learn about it at Yale??????

Broncos4Life6
07-18-2008, 10:15 PM
What is the essence of the Norv Turner (SD Chargers) offense?
Phillip give the ball to LT and whatever you do.... DONT fumble!

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 10:23 PM
whoa whoa whoa whoa

when's the last time THAT happened???

And why didn't I learn about it at Yale??????
I’m not sure of the dates, but it was when Atlantis went under.

I’m sorry to break this to you, but Yale is under the thumb of the Illuminati.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/A/Alien_invasion.asp

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 10:30 PM
I’m not sure of the dates, but it was when Atlantis went under.

I’m sorry to break this to you, but Yale is under the thumb of the Illuminati.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/A/Alien_invasion.asp

Well sure, that's why I went there...

not sure of the alien connection though.

http://www.sqa.org.uk/images/Bulb.jpg

Is Norv Turner an alien?

Texas lightning
07-18-2008, 10:51 PM
Well sure, that's why I went there...

not sure of the alien connection though.

http://www.sqa.org.uk/images/Bulb.jpg

Is Norv Turner an alien?maybe Walter Camp was an alien trying to bring a more civil and stratigic mode to a chaotic and violent game like rugby

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 10:57 PM
maybe Walter Camp was an alien trying to bring a more civil and stratigic mode to a chaotic and violent game like rugby

He doesn't look like an alien

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=85214&rendTypeId=4

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 11:11 PM
He doesn't look like an alien

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=85214&rendTypeId=4

True: this guy below certainly looks like an alien though.

http://forums.chargers.com/image.php?u=74074&dateline=1215838161 (http://forums.chargers.com/member.php?u=74074)

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 11:13 PM
True: this guy below certainly looks like an alien though.

http://forums.chargers.com/image.php?u=74074&dateline=1215838161 (http://forums.chargers.com/member.php?u=74074)

That's cause he played in the AFL.

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 11:21 PM
AFL?
That must have been in the Atlantian days. ____ Atlantisian. ____ Days of Atlantis.

Texas lightning
07-18-2008, 11:25 PM
He doesn't look like an alien

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=85214&rendTypeId=4well then he sure was a Football God " All hail WC the father of American Football" Move over Abner Doubleday, Walter Camp is our true hero

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 11:36 PM
Walter looks like he could have been a much beloved character actor in the movies.

He has that kind of face (and expression of enjoyment of life) that would make me trust him at first sight. (at least in this picture)

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=85214&rendTypeId=4

I get the feeling that he is privy to knowledge that few have.
And I don’t mean football knowledge.

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 11:37 PM
AFL?
That must have been in the Atlantian days. ____ Atlantisian. ____ Days of Atlantis.

Atlanta joined the NFL in 1966. I lived near Atlanta for awhile. Pretty much everyone there is alien. How else to explain the eating of
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2007/02/09/ie0103_hog_e.jpg

?

Jubilation T. Cornpone
07-18-2008, 11:43 PM
Atlanta joined the NFL in 1966. I lived near Atlanta for awhile. Pretty much everyone there is alien. How else to explain the eating of
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2007/02/09/ie0103_hog_e.jpg

?
Just to get back to topic, I would say that that is an Essence of Norv Turner Dinner.

FCBolt
07-18-2008, 11:46 PM
Just to get back to topic, I would say that that is an Essence of Norv Turner Dinner.

...and what he's going to do to the Pats aging D.

Texas lightning
07-18-2008, 11:54 PM
hopefully he'll make chittlins out of them

CHARGERSDOC
07-19-2008, 12:48 AM
We will witness the first wave of Norv-Attack soon. And when it happens, the world will bow down to his shadow.

BayAreaCharger
07-19-2008, 01:42 AM
Scoring a lot of ****ing points.

LABoltsFan
07-19-2008, 02:28 AM
the norv turner offense has the vision to be a high scoring and lethal offense.
i hope that they never get comfortable with a lead and dont stop "Trying to score" until they are safely 21 points ahead of an opponent.

this is not a free license to "run up the score", rather an adaptation of the colts offensive mentality; 'we dont stop trying to score until the game is put away"

FCBolt
07-19-2008, 09:47 AM
the norv turner offense has the vision to be a high scoring and lethal offense.
i hope that they never get comfortable with a lead and dont stop "Trying to score" until they are safely 21 points ahead of an opponent.

this is not a free license to "run up the score", rather an adaptation of the colts offensive mentality; 'we dont stop trying to score until the game is put away"

Word! I wanna see Volek and/or Whitehurst finish a bunch of games this year.

eightdogs
07-19-2008, 01:29 PM
If you go back to Dllas's superbowl years when Norv was th offensive playcaller you'll see that he used five components in his offense for the most part, with several other palyers as additional threats. Who were Norv's key offensive skill players ?

QB Troy Aikman
RB Emmit Smith
WR Michael Irvin
TE Jay Novacek
And the fullback whose name I can't remember, I think Butch Johnson


Norv ran a balanced offense utilizing Emmit Smith's durability, speed, and shiftiness, the fullback's power on short yardage situations, Michael Irvin's great play making ability, and Jay Novacek's power tight end play. He spread the ball around, but he utilized those palyers the most.

So who does he have on the Chargers that mimic those great Cowboy's players ?

River at QB
LT at running back
Chris Chambers at WR
Antonio Gates at TE
And if Hester turns out to be the player I think he'll be, he'll be the short yardage FB that can catch balls out of the backfield and move the chains.

Add to those players Vincent Jackson, Legedu Naanee, Manumaleuna, and Darren Sproles, and you've got some really good options to go to. And if Marcus Thomas and Andrew Pinnock can deliver when called upon the Chargers should look pretty dangerous on offense. I didn't include Parker as I think Mr. Clutch wil be traded away before the start of the season.

Texas lightning
07-19-2008, 07:34 PM
If you go back to Dllas's superbowl years when Norv was th offensive playcaller you'll see that he used five components in his offense for the most part, with several other palyers as additional threats. Who were Norv's key offensive skill players ?

QB Troy Aikman
RB Emmit Smith
WR Michael Irvin
TE Jay Novacek
And the fullback whose name I can't remember, I think Butch Johnson


Norv ran a balanced offense utilizing Emmit Smith's durability, speed, and shiftiness, the fullback's power on short yardage situations, Michael Irvin's great play making ability, and Jay Novacek's power tight end play. He spread the ball around, but he utilized those palyers the most.

So who does he have on the Chargers that mimic those great Cowboy's players ?

River at QB
LT at running back
Chris Chambers at WR
Antonio Gates at TE
And if Hester turns out to be the player I think he'll be, he'll be the short yardage FB that can catch balls out of the backfield and move the chains.

Add to those players Vincent Jackson, Legedu Naanee, Manumaleuna, and Darren Sproles, and you've got some really good options to go to. And if Marcus Thomas and Andrew Pinnock can deliver when called upon the Chargers should look pretty dangerous on offense. I didn't include Parker as I think Mr. Clutch wil be traded away before the start of the season.If you ask me I'd say we have even more talent than that 90's dallas team had problem is they didn't have the wall of playoff contenders to go through like we do.

PGHChargerfan
07-19-2008, 08:00 PM
If you go back to Dllas's superbowl years when Norv was th offensive playcaller you'll see that he used five components in his offense for the most part, with several other palyers as additional threats. Who were Norv's key offensive skill players ?

QB Troy Aikman
RB Emmit Smith
WR Michael Irvin
TE Jay Novacek
And the fullback whose name I can't remember, I think Butch Johnson


Norv ran a balanced offense utilizing Emmit Smith's durability, speed, and shiftiness, the fullback's power on short yardage situations, Michael Irvin's great play making ability, and Jay Novacek's power tight end play. He spread the ball around, but he utilized those palyers the most.

So who does he have on the Chargers that mimic those great Cowboy's players ?

River at QB
LT at running back
Chris Chambers at WR
Antonio Gates at TE
And if Hester turns out to be the player I think he'll be, he'll be the short yardage FB that can catch balls out of the backfield and move the chains.

Add to those players Vincent Jackson, Legedu Naanee, Manumaleuna, and Darren Sproles, and you've got some really good options to go to. And if Marcus Thomas and Andrew Pinnock can deliver when called upon the Chargers should look pretty dangerous on offense. I didn't include Parker as I think Mr. Clutch wil be traded away before the start of the season.

You're right on line. It was "Moose" Johnston and you bet your chitlins (or whatever that was on that plate of Atlanta scrap meat) that Hester is going to be playing "Moose" in this offense!

boltfannvegas
07-19-2008, 09:12 PM
I agree with what you are saying about the skill positions. Dallas had a huge HUGE OLINE that plowed people over in the running game though. I would love to see our line more physical at all positions.

FCBolt
07-19-2008, 10:36 PM
You're right on line. It was "Moose" Johnston and you bet your chitlins (or whatever that was on that plate of Atlanta scrap meat) that Hester is going to be playing "Moose" in this offense!

NOT chitlins (aka guts), those were pigs feet and ears.

Moose was 6-2 238.
Hester is 5-11 230.
Close!

I'm not sure that Hester is gonna be as good a blocker as Moose, but I hope so.

desertswo
07-19-2008, 11:42 PM
NOT chitlins (aka guts), those were pigs feet and ears.

Moose was 6-2 238.
Hester is 5-11 230.
Close!

I'm not sure that Hester is gonna be as good a blocker as Moose, but I hope so.

Well, I don't think Hester will be the blocker that Moose was . . . few outside of LoNeal were/are. However, I think he has the potential to be every bit as good a receiver out of the backfield; maybe even better as I expect his RAC to be much more respectable, and he will most definitely be a much better runner from scrimmage. Actually, I am hopeful that his career will be a bit more like this guy's (http://www.nfl.com/players/larrycenters/profile?id=CEN553722) than Moose's. Size-wise they are very similar, but again, I think Hester will be the more accomplished runner from scrimmage. I'm not sure he can duplicate the receiving numbers but number 31 caught 69 and 81 passes for Norv in 1999 and 2000 respectively, for a combined total of 1144 yards and six TDs. Pretty respectable stuff for a guy nearer to the end of his career than the beginning. Imagine what a similarly talented Hester will be able to do in Norv's offense with a young man's legs!:Cheers:

FCBolt
07-19-2008, 11:51 PM
Well, I don't think Hester will be the blocker that Moose was . . . few outside of LoNeal were/are. However, I think he has the potential to be every bit as good a receiver out of the backfield; maybe even better as I expect his RAC to be much more respectable, and he will most definitely be a much better runner from scrimmage. Actually, I am hopeful that his career will be a bit more like this guy's (http://www.nfl.com/players/larrycenters/profile?id=CEN553722) than Moose's. Size-wise they are very similar, but again, I think Hester will be the more accomplished runner from scrimmage. I'm not sure he can duplicate the receiving numbers but number 31 caught 69 and 81 passes for Norv in 1999 and 2000 respectively, for a combined total of 1144 yards and six TDs. Pretty respectable stuff for a guy nearer to the end of his career than the beginning. Imagine what a similarly talented Hester will be able to do in Norv's offense with a young man's legs!:Cheers:

naah--I don't think so either--Just hope so. It's hard to compare Hester to anyone. He's gonna be a hybrid back who racks up yardage on the ground and in the air. Call me a homer, but I'm thinking he's going to be a key part of Norvs varied and unpredictable playcalling this year.

What's RAC? Same as YAC?

desertswo
07-20-2008, 12:05 AM
naah--I don't think so either--Just hope so. It's hard to compare Hester to anyone. He's gonna be a hybrid back who racks up yardage on the ground and in the air. Call me a homer, but I'm thinking he's going to be a key part of Norvs varied and unpredictable playcalling this year.

What's RAC? Same as YAC?

Yeah, run after catch is the same as yards after catch. To me the latter reminds me of barfing, while the former causes me to think happier guy thoughts. :D

FCBolt
07-20-2008, 12:41 AM
Yeah, run after catch is the same as yards after catch. To me the latter reminds me of barfing, while the former causes me to think happier guy thoughts. :D

Good pt, and I could post a pic to support your thesis, but I'll just default to here (http://forums.chargers.com/showpost.php?p=1997660&postcount=14168)

JoeMcRugby
07-20-2008, 07:01 AM
I agree with what you are saying about the skill positions. Dallas had a huge HUGE OLINE that plowed people over in the running game though. I would love to see our line more physical at all positions.

Actually, the Cowboys o-line when Norv was there in the championship years of 1992 and 1993 weren't all that huge. It was probably more of of a mindset than size of the line.

1992 and 1993 starters - Cowboys O-line

T Mark Tuinei: 6'5" 302 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...T/TuinMa00.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuinMa00.htm)

G Nate Newton 6'3" 318 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...N/NewtNa00.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtNa00.htm)

C Mark Stepnoski 6'2" 269 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/StepMa00.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StepMa00.htm)

G John Gesek 6'5" 282 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...G/GeseJo20.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GeseJo20.htm)

T Erik Williams 6'6" 324 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WillEr01.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillEr01.htm)

G Kevin Gogan 6'7" 317 pounds
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...G/GogaKe00.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GogaKe00.htm)



The Chargers o-line has the capability to perform just as well in run blocking as that o-line should they collectively adopt the same nasty attitude that Dielman displays on every play.

desertswo
07-20-2008, 08:37 AM
Good pt, and I could post a pic to support your thesis, but I'll just default to here (http://forums.chargers.com/showpost.php?p=1997660&postcount=14168)

Yeah, that's the ticket!

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mme0528/jon_lovitz-devil-snl-46.jpg

LA Chargers '07
07-20-2008, 08:57 AM
Hey can someone explain WHY our OLine was so bad the first part of the season last year??? I'm not one to understand blocking schemes and what not so i for one cant understand what changes Norv implemented into our OLine that seemingly had them so confused at the beggining of the season.

Is the way he uses the OLine vastly different compared to the way Marty used it???

Then again you think of Norv's OLines in Dallas as discussed above and they were one of the best OLine's ever.

For anyone with a better understanding of offensive schemes and Norv's system, what was it that our OLine was so lost and confused about the first half of the season????

JoeMcRugby
07-20-2008, 09:15 AM
Hey can someone explain WHY our OLine was so bad the first part of the season last year??? I'm not one to understand blocking schemes and what not so i for one cant understand what changes Norv implemented into our OLine that seemingly had them so confused at the beggining of the season.

Is the way he uses the OLine vastly different compared to the way Marty used it???

Then again you think of Norv's OLines in Dallas as discussed above and they were one of the best OLine's ever.

For anyone with a better understanding of offensive schemes and Norv's system, what was it that our OLine was so lost and confused about the first half of the season????

One major aspect: McNeill came into the 2006 season with a huge chip on his shoulder after dropping further in the draft than expected. They also had Manu helping him out for the majority of the season.

That chip was missing from McNeill's shoulder after the 2006 season concluded - in the offseason and training camp - and it showed. Norv also left McNeill on his own more often at the start of 2007 without Manu's help.

McNeill's play improved as the season went on, but he has acknowledged this offseason that he didn't work as hard as he should have last year and it affected his play. McNeill has reportedly corrected that deficiency the past few months with a lot of hard work.

A second major factor: Olivea hurt his back on the 2nd or 3rd play of the NE game. Clary got his first NFL start against GB and went back to the bench as Olivea played very poorly while hurt until Clary permanently took over the job during the Baltimore game.

That's both tackles playing poorly over the first 10 games - with PR getting belted regularly as teams knew that they could play up tight against the run because PR wouldn't - and didn't - have time to throw it deep before he got hit.

Additionally, as Norv noted in his interview posted today, PR started making quicker decisions as the absorbed the intricacies of the more complex offensive scheme.

Added in with Hardwick's midseason injury, those are the reasons why the o-line struggled early in the season. The only time that they struggled late was when All-Pro Haynesworth and Pro Bowler Vandenbosch wreaked havoc in the December Titans game - but even then, the o-line wore down the Titans defensive front late in the game as they switched gears to dominate them down the stretch.

Tboneterry
07-21-2008, 12:17 AM
I swear I will fall over with a coronary if we could ever start the game on offense with a play action post bomb pattern to Chambers or Jackson.
I remember once a few yrs ago when the Bolts did exactly that against the Raiders. One play, 70 yards to J.J Jefferson Bolts lead 7-0 Dam it was so cool. If nothing else, it sure keeps the defense honest and not stacking the box. See ya in Florida

Caslon
07-21-2008, 12:37 AM
Dan Fouts relayed an anecdote of him on the sidelines with Don Coryell during a critical timeout. What play to go with?

Dan says coach Coryell came up to him and said.."pass it"! "pass it!"

hehe.

crixus
07-21-2008, 01:14 AM
Essence? He's not a hairdresser.

Fouts got his amazing powers from his magic beard! :14: