New Contract Info

[freakshow]

Winslow deal portends riches for Gates (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/weblogs/chargers/2009/apr/07/winslow-deal-portends-riches-gates/?chargers)
By Kevin Acee
April 7, 2009, 9:10 a.m.

The record six-year, $36.1 million contract Kellen Winslow II signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers on Monday brings into clearer focus the kind of money it will take to keep Antonio Gates a Charger beyond 2010.

Gates did not hire superagent Tom Condon last offseason to take a discount on this next contract.

And while Winslow is younger and has shown flashes of his father's brilliance, it is Gates who has assaulted the original Kellen Winslow's records.

Gates is due to make $3.25 million this season in the second-to-last year of a six-year, $22.54 deal signed in 2005. He and Philip Rivers are the top targets the Chargers' brass has decided to try to sign to long-term deals in the coming months.

It could take around $100 million over seven or eight years to sign Rivers. The contract Gates signs might reflect the fact he turns 29 in June, five days before LaDainian Tomlinson turns 30. That would mean it would be heavily backloaded.

But it also will likely include more guaranteed money than the $20.1 million Winslow reportedly got and the $17 million Tony Gonzalez got in 2007.

Over the past five seasons, no tight end has more touchdowns than Gates, and only Gonzalez has more receptions, yards or first downs.

No tight end in history reached 50 career touchdowns faster than Gates, who did so last season in his 92nd game. Only the elder Winslow reached 5,000 receiving yards quicker than Gates did (also in his 92nd game).

And, lastly, though certainly not least important, Chargers General Manager A.J. Smith could not think more highly of Gates, as a talent and as a team player.

[LABoltsFan]

Winslow deal portends riches for Gates (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/weblogs/chargers/2009/apr/07/winslow-deal-portends-riches-gates/?chargers)
By Kevin Acee
April 7, 2009, 9:10 a.m.

The record six-year, $36.1 million contract Kellen Winslow II signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers on Monday brings into clearer focus the kind of money it will take to keep Antonio Gates a Charger beyond 2010.

Gates did not hire superagent Tom Condon last offseason to take a discount on this next contract.

And while Winslow is younger and has shown flashes of his father's brilliance, it is Gates who has assaulted the original Kellen Winslow's records.

Gates is due to make $3.25 million this season in the second-to-last year of a six-year, $22.54 deal signed in 2005. He and Philip Rivers are the top targets the Chargers' brass has decided to try to sign to long-term deals in the coming months.

It could take around $100 million over seven or eight years to sign Rivers. The contract Gates signs might reflect the fact he turns 29 in June, five days before LaDainian Tomlinson turns 30. That would mean it would be heavily backloaded.

But it also will likely include more guaranteed money than the $20.1 million Winslow reportedly got and the $17 million Tony Gonzalez got in 2007.

Over the past five seasons, no tight end has more touchdowns than Gates, and only Gonzalez has more receptions, yards or first downs.

No tight end in history reached 50 career touchdowns faster than Gates, who did so last season in his 92nd game. Only the elder Winslow reached 5,000 receiving yards quicker than Gates did (also in his 92nd game).

And, lastly, though certainly not least important, Chargers General Manager A.J. Smith could not think more highly of Gates, as a talent and as a team player.

2 more years of Gates.. until Ed McGuirre and Tom Condon go head to head.

I say he's worth $6M per year.

[JoeMcRugby]

2 more years of Gates.. until Ed McGuirre and Tom Condon go head to head.

I say he's worth $6M per year.

Don't know how accurate the "rumors" are (mentioned again in Acee's blog entry), but there have been several articles indicating that the Chargers are hoping to extend both PR and Gates this offseason.

That's why they haven't gone hog wild in UFA, much to the chagrin of those who want them to go hog wild.

[BoltBacker17Oz]

Heres to hoping they Git-r-Done!!! Gates is another player I jus cant imagine not retiring as a SB CHAMPION CHARGER!! In my future we will go down as one of the longest running squads to stay together.

[FCBolt]

Don't know how accurate the "rumors" are (mentioned again in Acee's blog entry), but there have been several articles indicating that the Chargers are hoping to extend both PR and Gates this offseason.

That's why they haven't gone hog wild in UFA, much to the chagrin of those who want them to go hog wild.

Define 'hog wild'.

Is it picking up, say, 3 reasonably priced FAs?
Or are you thinking more in terms of something like Peppers + 2 more FAs?

[56lightsout56]

Define 'hog wild'.

Is it picking up, say, 3 reasonably priced FAs?
Or are you thinking more in terms of something like Peppers + 2 more FAs?

it means they havent acted like the Donks have

[FCBolt]

it means they havent acted like the Donks have

Donk wild is level above hog wild isn't it?
I thought it was a Shanny thing, but apparently it's an organizational addiction.

[sonorajim]

it means they havent acted like the Donks have

I'd say the Redskins are the definition of "hog wild". Darth Raider and the Donks are runner-ups.
Do Forney and Scott who were late FA hires last season and were allowed the extra time to rehab and learn SD's system count as this year's FA players? If so that's three mid range FA's for '09.

[FCBolt]

I'd say the Redskins are the definition of "hog wild". Darth Raider and the Donks are runner-ups.
Do Forney and Scott who were late FA hires last season and were allowed the extra time to rehab and learn SD's system count as this year's FA players? If so that's three mid range FA's for '09.

Are they new FAs that we picked up this offseason to improve our team?

No.

[JoeMcRugby]

Are they new FAs that we picked up this offseason to improve our team?

No.

The Chargers signed one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team.

As is, they have approximately $10 million in cap space to fit approximately $160 million in contracts between PR and Gates this offseason.

That's a daunting enough task in and of itself. Ed McGuire is going to have to be very creative to fit those deals so they lock up two of the biggest pieces to Chargers success.

Cut the $10 million in cap space to $6 million or so after signing two more reasonably priced free agents, extending both PR and Gates in 2009 becomes impossible.

They tried to get Phillips - he re-signed with Tampa.

After the draft, there may be some vets willing to sign for the vet's minimum (i.e. Mike Brown and the like).

[Steve-O-Bolt]

The Chargers signed one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team.

As is, they have approximately $10 million in cap space to fit approximately $160 million in contracts between PR and Gates this offseason.

That's a daunting enough task in and of itself. Ed McGuire is going to have to be very creative to fit those deals so they lock up two of the biggest pieces to Chargers success.

Cut the $10 million in cap space to $6 million or so after signing two more reasonably priced free agents, extending both PR and Gates in 2009 becomes impossible.

They tried to get Phillips - he re-signed with Tampa.

After the draft, there may be some vets willing to sign for the vet's minimum (i.e. Mike Brown and the like).

But can't the Chargers get creative and back end load some of that money, and signing bonus? In addition, next year could become an uncapped year, so I don't think you need to worry about fitting these contracts to just six to ten million. Plus, the cap goes up every year, but we also forget, we need to re-sign Merriman.

[FCBolt]

The Chargers signed one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team.

As is, they have approximately $10 million in cap space to fit approximately $160 million in contracts between PR and Gates this offseason.

That's a daunting enough task in and of itself. Ed McGuire is going to have to be very creative to fit those deals so they lock up two of the biggest pieces to Chargers success.

Cut the $10 million in cap space to $6 million or so after signing two more reasonably priced free agents, extending both PR and Gates in 2009 becomes impossible.

They tried to get Phillips - he re-signed with Tampa.

After the draft, there may be some vets willing to sign for the vet's minimum (i.e. Mike Brown and the like).

Don't forget the $x million that needs to be allotted to 2009 draft picks.

This isn't the right time to extend Gates imo. We still don't know about his health, and Winslow's contract is going to put some upward pressure on Gates' contract.

[matt3706]

Merriman can't become a free-agent in the uncapped season because he doesn't have enough years of service, it goes from 4 to 6 in the uncapped year to become an UFA. So essentially we've got him locked up for the next two years, I'm guessing AJ wants to see how he comes back this season before he looks to sign him longterm....

[JoeMcRugby]

But can't the Chargers get creative and back end load some of that money, and signing bonus? In addition, next year could become an uncapped year, so I don't think you need to worry about fitting these contracts to just six to ten million. Plus, the cap goes up every year, but we also forget, we need to re-sign Merriman.

Exactly.

That's how they can fit $160 million into $10 million of cap space in 2009. However, don't forget: salaries can only increase by 30% over the prior year under the CBA that was adopted in 2006. You can't do anymore of the "funny money" deals with huge increases at the end of the contract anymore.

Into $6 million of cap space? Very doubtful - probably impossible.

They want to get PR's and Gates' contracts done now - under the 2009 cap. No way, no how do they want to enter 2010 with both PR and Merriman as potential free agents, when only one can have the franchise tag placed on them.

By getting PR and Gates done now, they won't have to potentially deal with them next year as they will have to deal with Merriman, McNeill and VJ in 2010.

[JoeMcRugby]

Don't forget the $x million that needs to be allotted to 2009 draft picks.

This isn't the right time to extend Gates imo. We still don't know about his health, and Winslow's contract is going to put some upward pressure on Gates' contract.

I already did. The $5 million for the rookie pool is on top of the $10 million I talked about. After LT's restructure and Sproles signs his long-term deal, the 2009 cap should be at about $15 million.

BTW AJ and company knows Gates' health - and they've given signals that the best time to get a good deal from Condon is two years prior to his current contract.

IMO The time to do the deal is now as Gates signed an "under-market" contract in 2005 due to his exclusive rights restricted free agent status. Gates has been nothing but a loyal soldier with no complaints at all regarding his contract status. Now is the time to reward him for his past services and the next half-decade that he probably has left in the prime years of his career.

[FCBolt]

I already did. The $5 million for the rookie pool is on top of the $10 million I talked about. After LT's restructure and Sproles signs his long-term deal, the 2009 cap should be at about $15 million.

BTW AJ and company knows Gates' health - and they've given signals that the best time to get a good deal from Condon is two years prior to his current contract.

IMO The time to do the deal is now as Gates signed an "under-market" contract in 2005 due to his exclusive rights restricted free agent status. Gates has been nothing but a loyal soldier with no complaints at all regarding his contract status. Now is the time to reward him for his past services and the next half-decade that he probably has left in the prime years of his career.

I'm not sure we'd reward him if he wasn't going to help us in the future.
But good pt--maybe AJ and co do know Gates' health, and if the projections are good, it could be a good time to re-sign him.

However, re-signing him now DOES have the cost of being unable to pick up a good FA at a key position of need. The AJ philosophy is to keep everyone re-signed at the expense of picking up big name FAs. If you keep your core players, you'll keep reaching the playoffs, and eventually it'll be your turn to win it all. "Just get to the tournament," he always says.

But frankly, his extreme interpretation of 'build through the draft' hasn't had us sniffing a Super Bowl title yet. Hopefully, it will soon. But the clock is winding down on whether this philosophy works....

As for the inevitable Steelers analogy in 2008
Starting Steelers that weren't drafted by the Steelers : Farrior, Clark, Hartwig
Same for Chargers: Goff, Hart

I'll see your Goff and Hart with a Hartwig and Clark and raise you a Farrior.

That one guy who you pay a tad extra can make a big difference.

[JoeMcRugby]

I'm not sure we'd reward him if he wasn't going to help us in the future.
But good pt--maybe AJ and co do know Gates' health, and if the projections are good, it could be a good time to re-sign him.

However, re-signing him now DOES have the cost of being unable to pick up a good FA at a key position of need. The AJ philosophy is to keep everyone re-signed at the expense of picking up big name FAs. If you keep your core players, you'll keep reaching the playoffs, and eventually it'll be your turn to win it all. "Just get to the tournament," he always says.

But frankly, his extreme interpretation of 'build through the draft' hasn't had us sniffing a Super Bowl title yet. Hopefully, it will soon. But the clock is winding down on whether this philosophy works....

As for the inevitable Steelers analogy in 2008

Starting Steelers that weren't drafted by the Steelers : Farrior, Clark, Hartwig

Same for Chargers: Goff, Hart

I'll see your Goff and Hart with a Hartwig and Clark and raise you a Farrior.

That one guy who you pay a tad extra can make a big difference.

Plus Chambers, ...

As for the Steelers: only Hartwig signed as a free agent since 2006. Farrior has been a Steeler since 2002.

With the Steelers, one starter replaced via free agency in 2008 - just as the Chargers will be looking to do in 2009 by bringing in their one free agent LB.

If the Steelers had given up on their strategy 5 years into it, they'd still be looking for their first ring since the 1970s. It took them 15 years of banging on the door to finally get in.

I'm confident that the Chargers won't take that long. :Cheers:

BTW Who is that one good bargain free agent who will get the Chargers over the hump at the cost of extending PR or Gates and at the likely cost of a 2010 compensatory draft pick?

[CanadianBoltFan]

The Chargers signed one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team.

As is, they have approximately $10 million in cap space to fit approximately $160 million in contracts between PR and Gates this offseason.

That's a daunting enough task in and of itself. Ed McGuire is going to have to be very creative to fit those deals so they lock up two of the biggest pieces to Chargers success.

Cut the $10 million in cap space to $6 million or so after signing two more reasonably priced free agents, extending both PR and Gates in 2009 becomes impossible.

They tried to get Phillips - he re-signed with Tampa.

After the draft, there may be some vets willing to sign for the vet's minimum (i.e. Mike Brown and the like).

Joe is right. It is tempting to want to see some action on the free agent market but what did the Chargers miss out on really?

Burnett is a decent signing, the right kind of signing for the Chargers. He isnt a huge name, or a sure thing for that matter, but he has talent and at least upside at still only 26.

Jermaine Phillips would have been the one guy that could have made an impact that made some sense, and the Chargers were at least seriously looking into it.

Other than that there wasn't a whole lot out there that made sense. I wouldn't have minded some o-line depth but there wasn't much worthwhile out here that I could see.

[CanadianBoltFan]

I already did. The $5 million for the rookie pool is on top of the $10 million I talked about. After LT's restructure and Sproles signs his long-term deal, the 2009 cap should be at about $15 million.

BTW AJ and company knows Gates' health - and they've given signals that the best time to get a good deal from Condon is two years prior to his current contract.

IMO The time to do the deal is now as Gates signed an "under-market" contract in 2005 due to his exclusive rights restricted free agent status. Gates has been nothing but a loyal soldier with no complaints at all regarding his contract status. Now is the time to reward him for his past services and the next half-decade that he probably has left in the prime years of his career.

I would have to say that Gates is my favorite Charger, just love the guy. Great story, unique weapon, a ton of fun to watch the mis-matches and he is a really decent down to earth guy and great teammate.

He must be signed. That is one guy I couldnt bear to see in another uni!

[FCBolt]

Plus Chambers, ...

As for the Steelers: only Hartwig signed as a free agent since 2006. Farrior has been a Steeler since 2002.

With the Steelers, one starter replaced via free agency in 2008 - just as the Chargers will be looking to do in 2009 by bringing in their one free agent LB.

If the Steelers had given up on their strategy 5 years into it, they'd still be looking for their first ring since the 1970s. It took them 15 years of banging on the door to finally get in.

I'm confident that the Chargers won't take that long. :Cheers:

BTW Who is that one good bargain free agent who will get the Chargers over the hump at the cost of extending PR or Gates and at the likely cost of a 2010 compensatory draft pick?

Chambers: Trades count???? ;)

My point is that the Steelers are willing to pay that little bit extra for their FA.

re your last question:
first, the 5th round comp in 2010 isn't that big a deal.
second, we could extend Gates next year--the cost might be more in cap money if he has a stellar season--that's the dice roll.
third, the actual question: heck, I don't know who that guy was. But as good as the Bolts scouting dept is at ID'ing UDFAs, I bet they can ID the NFL FA.
Point is, the Bolt philosophy doesn't allow us to go after that six million dollar man.

Although I'll admit this: the Chambers trade is a good example of picking up a vet who'll cost us a lot but who will help us. Why we're willing to do it via trade but not FA, I don't get.

[FCBolt]

Joe is right. It is tempting to want to see some action on the free agent market but what did the Chargers miss out on really?

Burnett is a decent signing, the right kind of signing for the Chargers. He isnt a huge name, or a sure thing for that matter, but he has talent and at least upside at still only 26.

Jermaine Phillips would have been the one guy that could have made an impact that made some sense, and the Chargers were at least seriously looking into it.

Other than that there wasn't a whole lot out there that made sense. I wouldn't have minded some o-line depth but there wasn't much worthwhile out here that I could see.

The fact that we were looking at Phillips WAS encouraging, for sure.
But there were DL and LBs out there who could have helped us.

[CanadianBoltFan]

The fact that we were looking at Phillips WAS encouraging, for sure.
But there were DL and LBs out there who could have helped us.

I dont know if I can agree there were DLs that could help us. Only one comes to mind and I think the contract Chris Canty received is more than he is worth.

[FCBolt]

I dont know if I can agree there were DLs that could help us. Only one comes to mind and I think the contract Chris Canty received is more than he is worth.

That's a red herring. My argument is that the Bolts 'go cheap in FA' philosophy ain't the best way to win. If this year had the best FA crop at DL in the history of the NFL, we still wouldn't be spending money.

But I'm a fan of red herrings, so I'll bite anyway :)

Rocky Bernard, Shaun Cody, and yes Chris Canty--with his $7 million/yr averaged contract (cap hit for 2009 = $1.25 M in roster bonus, $1.42 M in signing bonus, and $3.75 M in salary for a grand total of ... $6.42 million in cap money YIKES)

[JoeMcRugby]

Ryon Binghom is better than massive bust Shaun Cody.

Neither Canty nor Bernard were "reasonably priced".

[BleedBolts]

I understand that Phillip and Gates are the Chargers #1 priority to lock up, but did anyone notice how we did last year with out 56?? I mean Gates is great and wouldn't want to see him leave if we had the opportunity to resign him, but come on, how can we not put our money toward one of the greatest OLB we have ever seen???

[JoeMcRugby]

I understand that Phillip and Gates are the Chargers #1 priority to lock up, but did anyone notice how we did last year with out 56?? I mean Gates is great and wouldn't want to see him leave if we had the opportunity to resign him, but come on, how can we not put our money toward one of the greatest OLB we have ever seen???

It takes two to reach a contract agreement.

Merriman - with Tom Condon as his agent - is almost certainly eying an Albert Haynesworth-like contract. They can't fit that contract - along with PR's - under the 2009 cap. Plus, they need to see how Merriman returns from his injury before committing that money.

The Chargers will franchise tag Merriman next year - probably the exclusive tag - and work on a long-term deal in 2010.

Merriman is going nowhere soon.

As this shows (when combined with McNeil & VJ), there are no easy answers to keeping the studs in SD. The chance of keeping them all diminishes if you overpay for free agents on the open market.

[starry]

Gates is great but he seems to have been injured a bit in the last two seasons.

[FCBolt]

Ryon Binghom is better than massive bust Shaun Cody.

Neither Canty nor Bernard were "reasonably priced".

Somehow I knew that'd be the response--but I just couldn't resist the bait.

Disagree on all pts, but quibbling about who's worth it or not is best left to other threads (and other posters...)

[BleedBolts]

It takes two to reach a contract agreement.

Merriman - with Tom Condon as his agent - is almost certainly eying an Albert Haynesworth-like contract. They can't fit that contract - along with PR's - under the 2009 cap. Plus, they need to see how Merriman returns from his injury before committing that money.

The Chargers will franchise tag Merriman next year - probably the exclusive tag - and work on a long-term deal in 2010.

Merriman is going nowhere soon.

As this shows (when combined with McNeil & VJ), there are no easy answers to keeping the studs in SD. The chance of keeping them all diminishes if you overpay for free agents on the open market.

I agree... They will franchise tag 56 after next year but c'mon, wait to c how he does after his surgery?? he dominated on 1 of 3 main ligaments in his knee. Now he is going to be completely healthy for the first time in years. i know he will preform and then command a huge contract. Lets be honest though... Im sure we are going to have to get into a bidding war in order to keep him long term.

[JoeMcRugby]

I agree... They will franchise tag 56 after next year but c'mon, wait to c how he does after his surgery?? he dominated on 1 of 3 main ligaments in his knee. Now he is going to be completely healthy for the first time in years. i know he will preform and then command a huge contract. Lets be honest though... Im sure we are going to have to get into a bidding war in order to keep him long term.

Yes, you wait to see how he does after surgery before any sane organization is willing to give him Haynesworth money.

They won't get into a bidding war because the Chargers will have him franchise tagged multiple times - if necessary - like all other prior franchise taggees.

The franchise tag usually serves as an incentive for a player to eventually sign a long-term deal. Prime example:

Seahawks Left Tackle Walter Jones was franchise tagged three times before he finally signed a long-term deal.

Terrell Suggs has just been franchise tagged for the 2nd consecutive year. The Ravens are working on getting him signed to a long-term deal.

Peyton Manning got franchise tagged before signing his long-term deal.

Dwight Freeney got franchise tagged before signing his long-term deal.

[Jay21]

Into $6 million of cap space? Very doubtful - probably impossible.

They want to get PR's and Gates' contracts done now - under the 2009 cap. No way, no how do they want to enter 2010 with both PR and Merriman as potential free agents, when only one can have the franchise tag placed on them.

Joe, do you happen to have accurate numbers on the Chargers' cap hits for 2009? I remember reading that Rivers' cap hit this year is already upwards of $9m, though I haven't been able to find that article again. I also believe that Chambers has a high cap hit as a result of added bonuses outside of the signing bonus (that Miami paid in full for). I believe the number was in the vicinity of $6m, which seems like Chambers is a big candidate to have his contract re-structured and extended to reduce the cap hit in 2009. And, if Rivers' cap hit is already approaching $10m, it shouldn't be too difficult to get a new contract in. It also gets me to thinking...

That's how they can fit $160 million into $10 million of cap space in 2009. However, don't forget: salaries can only increase by 30% over the prior year under the CBA that was adopted in 2006. You can't do anymore of the "funny money" deals with huge increases at the end of the contract anymore.

...that there's a loophole here. It says that salaries cannot increase by over 30%, but does it say anything about roster bonuses? For instance, what if the Chargers signed Rivers to a new deal that actually reduced (assuming again that his cap hit is already in the $9-10m range this year) his cap hit this season... but say it included a $15m roster bonus in March 2010. Since it would be crazy for the Chargers to get rid of Rivers, it makes sense that that $15m roster bonus is essentially guaranteed, no? Thus the Chargers would effectively raise Rivers' salary to a huge number in 2010 without actually raising the salary itself.

[JoeMcRugby]

Joe, do you happen to have accurate numbers on the Chargers' cap hits for 2009? I remember reading that Rivers' cap hit this year is already upwards of $9m, though I haven't been able to find that article again. I also believe that Chambers has a high cap hit as a result of added bonuses outside of the signing bonus (that Miami paid in full for). I believe the number was in the vicinity of $6m, which seems like Chambers is a big candidate to have his contract re-structured and extended to reduce the cap hit in 2009. And, if Rivers' cap hit is already approaching $10m, it shouldn't be too difficult to get a new contract in. It also gets me to thinking...



...that there's a loophole here. It says that salaries cannot increase by over 30%, but does it say anything about roster bonuses? For instance, what if the Chargers signed Rivers to a new deal that actually reduced (assuming again that his cap hit is already in the $9-10m range this year) his cap hit this season... but say it included a $15m roster bonus in March 2010. Since it would be crazy for the Chargers to get rid of Rivers, it makes sense that that $15m roster bonus is essentially guaranteed, no? Thus the Chargers would effectively raise Rivers' salary to a huge number in 2010 without actually raising the salary itself.

Whatever the extension that PR would sign, there has to be guaranteed money even if PR suffer a career ending injury in 2009 and doesn't play after that point in time.

If the new contract does not guarantee money in that event, PR has no incentive to sign it in 2009. He might as well wait until 2010 if the Chargers toe that line - when he would be a UFA and the Chargers would need the franchise tag to keep Merriman in town as well.

I'll have to study the loophole - it might be viable. However, teams can designate future roster bonuses as guaranteed. In your scenario, the 2010 roster bonus would be paid to PR whether he can play or not.

The NFL might have language that blocks the loophole of "shifting" salary money to roster bonus money to escape the 30% rule. I'll see what I can find in the upcoming days.

One way or another, the Chargers will need to give a boatload of irrevocably guaranteed money for PR to sign an extension.

[JoeMcRugby]

Jay, here's something that could be a "sticky wicket" in regard to fooling around with titles of guaranteed money:

10. Guaranteed salary from 2010 and beyond will be reallocated to capped years unless the entire 2009 salary is guaranteed.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/31/cba-qa/


It seems that the NFL has made a concerted effort to block teams from "loading up" contracts during the one potential uncapped season to avoid future salary caps.

My feeling is that guaranteed roster bonuses would fall under the same umbrella as the guaranteed salaries of the 2010 uncapped season rules.

PR's salary under his existing contract is not guaranteed. PR isn't going to sign a long-term deal without a boatload of guaranteed money at the front of the deal that protects him from career ending injury, plus his 2009 salary is not guaranteed.

I have no way of knowing right now, but I have a feeling that the NFL probably has an uncapped season rule to block the roster bonus rule.

[BoltBacker17Oz]

dang.
:17: and :85:s contract extensions is the last bit of Big news im hoping for from this OS. I really hope hes not that money hungry and will take less than hes worth. We can always make it up to him in his next contract extension.
Although he does have more mouths to feed than the avg player.

[Jay21]

10. Guaranteed salary from 2010 and beyond will be reallocated to capped years unless the entire 2009 salary is guaranteed.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/31/cba-qa/Interesting. I think that we may already be taking advantage of this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that part of the stipulation about LT signing a new contract was that he wanted his 2009 salary guaranteed. I was looking around, but I haven't found a more in-depth breakdown of LT's contract than Rotoworld gives.

3/10/2009: Signed a three-year, $17.875 million contract. The deal contains $7.725 million guaranteed, including a $2.875 million signing bonus and $1 million of his second-year salary. Another $2 million is available through yardage-based incentives in 2010. 2009: $3.825 million, 2010: $3 million (+ $2 million roster bonus due in March), 2011: $6.15 million

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=nfl&id=561From what I can tell, the $7.725m guaranteed includes:

$7.725m - $1.000m of 2nd-yr salary = $6.725m
$6.725m - $2.875m signing bonus = $3.850m

If the contract, in more depth, includes another $25,000 guaranteed somewhere - say a workout bonus this spring - then the difference is exactly the same as LT's salary. This would mean that the roster bonus in 2010 will be charged to that year's cap instead of being transferred to 2011's cap.

I also noticed this with Shaun Rogers' contract amid speculations that the Browns may be actively trying to shop him.

3/5/2008: Signed a six-year, $42 million contract. The deal contains $20 million guaranteed, including a $5 million signing bonus, a first-year roster bonus of $1 million, Rogers' second-year salary, and annual $200,000 workout bonuses. 2009: $2.4 million (+ $6 million option bonus due in March), 2010: $6.9 million, 2011: $5.5 million, 2012: $5.6 million, 2013: $5.5 million, 2014: $7 million (Voidable Year)

http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=1819The cap hit they will take if they cut/trade him this year is crippling. A large reason for that is because all of his 2009 salary is guaranteed. While I thought this was strange at first, I noticed that it might be a loophole for the Browns in case Rogers turned out to have the same motivational issues that he had in Detroit. That way, if they need to trade him away, they can do it in 2010 with the remaining guaranteed bonus being accelerated into the 2010 cap instead of 2011 and beyond. I'm not exactly sure how all of the $20m guaranteed breaks down as $4.4m is not accounted for in the description. The Browns have already paid at least $11.8m, meaning that up to $8.2m guaranteed would be accelerated into the 2010 cap. What the stipulation about the bonus loophole might be is that the amount of guaranteed money paid to a player that year cannot exceed their salary. So, if at least $1.3m of that unaccounted-for guaranteed money has been paid to Rogers already, then they would be free to cut/trade him if necessary.

That's my best stab in the dark at the capology behind the guaranteed salary loophole. Applying this to the LT case, I notice that $1m of his salary is guaranteed as well as $1.917m in signing bonus that had yet to hit the salary cap. So, if we are to cut LT in late February 2010, then that $2.917m of deap cap space would hit that year's cap instead of getting charged to 2011's cap space. And, it fits just under the $3m value of his salary, which seems to reaffirm my theory.

EDIT: actually, that unaccounted-for guaranteed money would come in the form of LTBEs, no?

[Chargrfan]

The Chargers signed one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team.

As is, they have approximately $10 million in cap space to fit approximately $160 million in contracts between PR and Gates this offseason.

That's a daunting enough task in and of itself. Ed McGuire is going to have to be very creative to fit those deals so they lock up two of the biggest pieces to Chargers success.

Cut the $10 million in cap space to $6 million or so after signing two more reasonably priced free agents, extending both PR and Gates in 2009 becomes impossible.

They tried to get Phillips - he re-signed with Tampa.

After the draft, there may be some vets willing to sign for the vet's minimum (i.e. Mike Brown and the like).
Who is the "one reasonbly priced free agent to improve the team."

[JoeMcRugby]

Who is the "one reasonably priced free agent to improve the team."

Kevin Burnett - 2 years, $6 million.

The Chargers desperately needed an ILB who can provide good pass coverage over the huge hole that has existed behind the ILBs and in front of the safety for over a half-decade.

Edwards was exceptional at coverage / jumping routes in the flat, but he was average at best in dropping back into coverage.

That is Burnett's strength as a player.

[thefuzz]

I'm not sure we'd reward him if he wasn't going to help us in the future.
But good pt--maybe AJ and co do know Gates' health, and if the projections are good, it could be a good time to re-sign him.

However, re-signing him now DOES have the cost of being unable to pick up a good FA at a key position of need. The AJ philosophy is to keep everyone re-signed at the expense of picking up big name FAs. If you keep your core players, you'll keep reaching the playoffs, and eventually it'll be your turn to win it all. "Just get to the tournament," he always says.

But frankly, his extreme interpretation of 'build through the draft' hasn't had us sniffing a Super Bowl title yet. Hopefully, it will soon. But the clock is winding down on whether this philosophy works....

As for the inevitable Steelers analogy in 2008
Starting Steelers that weren't drafted by the Steelers : Farrior, Clark, Hartwig
Same for Chargers: Goff, Hart

I'll see your Goff and Hart with a Hartwig and Clark and raise you a Farrior.

That one guy who you pay a tad extra can make a big difference.

You continue to look at the Steelers model, but refuse to look at their playoff record before they won their first SB. It took them 15 years under Cowher to win it, but then it happened again in just 2 years.

And as for sniffing the SB...what about last year against the Steelers, and the year before, against the Pats, and not to mention the year before that when the players boofed that entire game.....we are in the hunt, remain faithful.

[FCBolt]

You continue to look at the Steelers model, but refuse to look at their playoff record before they won their first SB. It took them 15 years under Cowher to win it, but then it happened again in just 2 years.

And as for sniffing the SB...what about last year against the Steelers, and the year before, against the Pats, and not to mention the year before that when the players boofed that entire game.....we are in the hunt, remain faithful.

I'd be happy to ignore the 'Steelers model' It's just everytime I so much as question the Bolts 'build through the draft only' model, someone brings up the Steelers.

In the post you quote, I was attempting to nip that in the bud.

And no, we did not come close to sniffing the Super Bowl in any of those years you mentioned. In only one were we in the AFCCG, and in that game the Pats made sure that we didn't even get a whiff. Because we couldn't get them off the field...hmmm.....

Faith? I'll always follow the Bolts. But I reserve the right to question AJs tactics, no matter how heretical it may seem to some :rolleyes:

[Ironpump]

I'd be happy to ignore the 'Steelers model' It's just everytime I so much as question the Bolts 'build through the draft only' model, someone brings up the Steelers.

In the post you quote, I was attempting to nip that in the bud.

And no, we did not come close to sniffing the Super Bowl in any of those years you mentioned. In only one were we in the AFCCG, and in that game the Pats made sure that we didn't even get a whiff. Because we couldn't get them off the field...hmmm.....

Faith? I'll always follow the Bolts. But I reserve the right to question AJs tactics, no matter how heretical it may seem to some :rolleyes:

Well pending who gets cut, which I doubt it will be anyone good there is no FA that would deserve a lot of money anyway. Mike Brown can get the vet minimum with the little attention he is getting. I don't see anyone on the FA market worth signing. No guys with potential either. Just veteran back ups. Maybe Vonnie Holliday but we shall see about him and how much he costs. We might as well get Gates and Rivers done now. We probably have some of the most talent out of any team hitting FA in 2010. If you truly want an effective FA signing wait until 2010.

[Chargrfan]

Well pending who gets cut, which I doubt it will be anyone good there is no FA that would deserve a lot of money anyway. Mike Brown can get the vet minimum with the little attention he is getting. I don't see anyone on the FA market worth signing. No guys with potential either. Just veteran back ups. Maybe Vonnie Holliday but we shall see about him and how much he costs. We might as well get Gates and Rivers done now. We probably have some of the most talent out of any team hitting FA in 2010. If you truly want an effective FA signing wait until 2010.
I would say Rivers and Merriman although Gates is my favorite player on the chargers.Most teams go for qbs and Lbs more than TEs

[JoeMcRugby]

I would say Rivers and Merriman although Gates is my favorite player on the chargers.Most teams go for qbs and Lbs more than TEs

They can't get both Merriman and PR extended with 2009 cap money. There's not enough cap space - and even if they did have the cap space to extend Merriman, it's without taking into consideration the insanity of signing Merriman to a Haynesworth contract coming off of his injury.

It's either PR & nobody or PR & Gates in 2009.

Merriman will get the franchise tag in 2010, much like Manning got the franchise tag in 2004 and Freeney getting the tag in 2007 with the Colts. They'll work on a long-term deal under either the capless 2010 season or the new salary cap for 2010.

[FCBolt]

Well pending who gets cut, which I doubt it will be anyone good there is no FA that would deserve a lot of money anyway. Mike Brown can get the vet minimum with the little attention he is getting. I don't see anyone on the FA market worth signing. No guys with potential either. Just veteran back ups. Maybe Vonnie Holliday but we shall see about him and how much he costs. We might as well get Gates and Rivers done now. We probably have some of the most talent out of any team hitting FA in 2010. If you truly want an effective FA signing wait until 2010.

This year is thin pickings, agreed
My gripe is about the overall strategy from year to year.

I might be just banging my head against the wall, but I'm hoping one year AJ snaps out of it and gets some all-star quality players in FA.

[Ironpump]

This year is thin pickings, agreed
My gripe is about the overall strategy from year to year.

I might be just banging my head against the wall, but I'm hoping one year AJ snaps out of it and gets some all-star quality players in FA.

I would prefer that being 2010 then.

[Chargrfan]

They can't get both Merriman and PR extended with 2009 cap money. There's not enough cap space - and even if they did have the cap space to extend Merriman, it's without taking into consideration the insanity of signing Merriman to a Haynesworth contract coming off of his injury.

It's either PR & nobody or PR & Gates in 2009.

Merriman will get the franchise tag in 2010, much like Manning got the franchise tag in 2004 and Freeney getting the tag in 2007 with the Colts. They'll work on a long-term deal under either the capless 2010 season or the new salary cap for 2010.
O i see. Talking about franchise tags did they negotiate with sproles to a long term deal yet? But i think we will be able to sign merriman next season instead of tagging him because chances are L.T will be released next season

[norcaldiscgolf1]

I think the James Harrison deal will help us in negotiations with Shawne Merriman

His contract will dictate what Demarcus Ware signs for and that will be a great ballpark for the Lights Out figures

I'm optimistic that we can keep all of our key components but the wild card is the CBA

[JoeMcRugby]

O i see. Talking about franchise tags did they negotiate with sproles to a long term deal yet? But i think we will be able to sign merriman next season instead of tagging him because chances are L.T will be released next season

They're still negotiating with Sproles and his agent. I have little doubt that they'll get the deal done.

We'll see with Merriman next year. One thing for sure, he's going nowhere. The franchise tag will hopefully serve as the same leverage and impetus for signing a long-term deal as it served the Colts when they tagged and then signed Manning and Freeney.

[Ironpump]

I think the James Harrison deal will help us in negotiations with Shawne Merriman

His contract will dictate what Demarcus Ware signs for and that will be a great ballpark for the Lights Out figures

I'm optimistic that we can keep all of our key components but the wild card is the CBA

James Harrison is 30 already. That has nothing to do with Merriman or Wares deal. They are much younger and the contract that they should be getting is going to be around the 80-100 million range with about 40 guaranteed. Haynesworth and Wares deal set the standard for Merrimans deal. Harrisons deal means nothing. You think they would only give him 51 million if he wasn't 30 yrs old? Also Suggs and Woodley will probably get huge deals soon also. Ware is probably going to get paid this year and Merriman and Suggs will probably get paid in 2010 or 2011.

[Chargrfan]

They're still negotiating with Sproles and his agent. I have little doubt that they'll get the deal done.

We'll see with Merriman next year. One thing for sure, he's going nowhere. The franchise tag will hopefully serve as the same leverage and impetus for signing a long-term deal as it served the Colts when they tagged and then signed Manning and Freeney.
O i hope your joking