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  #61  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by flwelshman View Post
I believe you're underestimating Norv's creativity here, Kemp. I'm not taking Gates off the field. I'm putting both on the field at the same time. I also believe Sean Payton, as good a coach as he is, could not carry Norv's jock if you want to match up offensive minds. He's also a Parcells disciple, so he doesn't particularly care to incorporate rookies very quickly, and at the time, he still had Shockey, who was always over-rated, IMO. In any case, Norv doesn't mind finding a role for young kids, and I really do think he finds a role that allows Greene to carve out 600+ yards...minimum..by the end of the year.
You cite Shockey's presence as a limiting factor for Graham. Gates is ten times the receiver that Shockey is, so how much more of a limiting factor could he be for Green? I recognize that, if Green progresses quickly in camp, he could see some playing time in two TE sets. But my point is that, with how good Gates is and how much Rivers likes him, Green isn't going to light the world on fire stat wise. A couple hundred yards and a handful of touchdowns would be a very good rookie campaign for someone as raw as Ladarius.
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  #62  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kemp17 View Post
You cite Shockey's presence as a limiting factor for Graham. Gates is ten times the receiver that Shockey is, so how much more of a limiting factor could he be for Green? I recognize that, if Green progresses quickly in camp, he could see some playing time in two TE sets. But my point is that, with how good Gates is and how much Rivers likes him, Green isn't going to light the world on fire stat wise. A couple hundred yards and a handful of touchdowns would be a very good rookie campaign for someone as raw as Ladarius.
Okay, Kemp, having followed Norv for a very long time, far before he came to San Diego, here is what I sort of foresee, right or wrong.

You seem to want to pigeon-hole Green into the TE position exclusively, whereas I see him being utilized both in the slot and as a WR too, on occasion. Norv likes to create the match ups he wants by moving players around. He might even start him in motion, out of the backfield...although I think that's a long shot. However, as an example, it's not far fetched at all to see him starting in the slot on the side opposite Gates, then put in motion to Gates' side. He could end up running a few yards from Gates with both of them going on different route breaks at the same time, or he might venture further out towards the WR as the ball is snapped, and the two of them working the DBs. In these scenarios, neither he, nor Gates may be the intended primary target, Norv is just using them to move defensive players around to where he wants them in order to create the mismatch he may want somewhere else, say with Meachem.

And, as I stated, the limiting factor in Graham's rookie year was NOT Shockey, but Payton. He just does not like to go with a rookie if he can avoid doing so at all. He learned this under Parcells, and it's a definite habit of his. Thus Shockey was the TE who got most of the attention until late in the year, when injuries and Graham's talent coincided.
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  #63  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:19 AM
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And where was it you saw me deny reality?

I believe Gates is healthy and will be more productive than ever this season.

My argument was, again, at the post I had quoted, arguing it's silly that just because Norv Turner says Gates is healthy that every coach in the league should recognize the threat. He looked great last season towards the end, so I believe he is, though it was comical that the original post stated that NOW is when coaches should start fearing him just because one man said so (and in the off season, no less). THAT is just talk. THAT is the point I was making.
OK. All the talk about "he hasn't played a game yet" misled me. I thought you meant there was doubt that he could.
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  #64  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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hope he drops more than a few lbs
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  #65  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by flwelshman View Post
I also believe, that if not at the very beginning, depending on how he picks things up, that at least by games 6-8 the young TE Greene could be moved into a slot position too, with both him and Gates on the field at the same time. It could prove even more troublesome for defenses than the height we had out there with VJ, Gates, and Floyd, with both Gates and Greene threatening the seams and Meachem and Floyd the outsides. Meachem isn't 6'4 or 5', but he is 6'1", so he's not a midget either. I am really looking forward to seeing how Norval is going to assimilate Greene into the offense, and how much the kid plays...which realistically depends on how quick he absorbs the offense.
So you're seeing a 2 tight end set.
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  #66  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by flwelshman View Post
Okay, Kemp, having followed Norv for a very long time, far before he came to San Diego, here is what I sort of foresee, right or wrong.

1. You seem to want to pigeon-hole Green into the TE position exclusively, whereas I see him being 2. utilized both in the slot and as 3. a WR too, on occasion. Norv likes to create the match ups he wants by moving players around. 4. He might even start him in motion, out of the backfield...although I think that's a long shot. However, as an example, it's not far fetched at all to see him starting in the slot on the side opposite Gates, then put in motion to Gates' side. He could end up running a few yards from Gates with both of them going on different route breaks at the same time, or he might venture further out towards the WR as the ball is snapped, and the two of them working the DBs. In these scenarios, neither he, nor Gates may be the intended primary target, Norv is just using them to move defensive players around to where he wants them in order to create the mismatch he may want somewhere else, say with Meachem.

And, as I stated, the limiting factor in Graham's rookie year was NOT Shockey, but Payton. He just does not like to go with a rookie if he can avoid doing so at all. He learned this under Parcells, and it's a definite habit of his. Thus Shockey was the TE who got most of the attention until late in the year, when injuries and Graham's talent coincided.
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

My point isn't that he's pigeon holed into playing TE. It's that all the things that he can do, Gates can do better at this point, and Gates is already Rivers' favorite target. So what I am saying is that expecting bigger numbers than Graham's from a very raw rookie playing behind a hall of famer is probably going to be a disappointing venture. And it shouldn't be. A couple hundred yards and a few TD' ought to be very satisfying for Charger fans as this young athlete develops into an effective football player.

You also have to consider Norv's expressed plans of using Royal in the slot along with Gates. To summarize what I'm saying: Green has to get in line. There are only so many passes to go around. He'll have his turn if he's healthy and diligent, I have no doubt. I just don't think it will be year one.

As far as Payton goes, I disagree. Cameron Jordan started 16 games as a rookie, Mark Ingram played often as a rookie and would have been the starter if healthy, Sedrick Ellis started as a rookie, Tracy Porter started as a rookie, etc. Graham didn't start right away because he needed to learn the game, just like Gates as a rookie. Same can be said for Green who, while he has more football experience than either of those two did as rookies, is playing behind one of the best in the league.

All of this, of course, is only in my very humble opinion, lest it come across like I think I'm taking you to school.
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  #67  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:51 AM
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I'm gonna say he'll end up with 65 catches for 650 yards and 9 touchdowns.
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  #68  
Old 05-22-2012, 06:03 AM
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I'm gonna say he'll end up with 65 catches for 650 yards and 9 touchdowns.
He's going to be worse in 2012?

He had 64 catches for 778 yards and 7 TDs in 2011 - a season where he missed 3 games and was hampered for another half-dozen due to the ruptured plantar fascia.
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  #69  
Old 05-22-2012, 06:59 AM
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How bout 1 of our 3 1,000 yard receivers, a la, the '81 team? Preferably with a better ending.
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  #70  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kemp17 View Post
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

My point isn't that he's pigeon holed into playing TE. It's that all the things that he can do, Gates can do better at this point, and Gates is already Rivers' favorite target. So what I am saying is that expecting bigger numbers than Graham's from a very raw rookie playing behind a hall of famer is probably going to be a disappointing venture. And it shouldn't be. A couple hundred yards and a few TD' ought to be very satisfying for Charger fans as this young athlete develops into an effective football player.

You also have to consider Norv's expressed plans of using Royal in the slot along with Gates. To summarize what I'm saying: Green has to get in line. There are only so many passes to go around. He'll have his turn if he's healthy and diligent, I have no doubt. I just don't think it will be year one.

As far as Payton goes, I disagree. Cameron Jordan started 16 games as a rookie, Mark Ingram played often as a rookie and would have been the starter if healthy, Sedrick Ellis started as a rookie, Tracy Porter started as a rookie, etc. Graham didn't start right away because he needed to learn the game, just like Gates as a rookie. Same can be said for Green who, while he has more football experience than either of those two did as rookies, is playing behind one of the best in the league.

All of this, of course, is only in my very humble opinion, lest it come across like I think I'm taking you to school.
Your reasoning is solid. However, if he shows well in OTAs and training camp, then you can bet Norv will incorporate him into the offense rather quickly. AJ alluded to this upon drafting him, adding that if we had to wait a half year for him to "get it," he still sees him playing a fairly significant role this year. I normally wouldn't pump up a 4th round pick like this, but between Gates' health issues, and AJ's words right after he selected him makes me think the Chargers want this guy up to speed and involved in the offense ASAP, just in case Gates gets hurt again. And, if that's the case, then I do see him and Gates...not Royal, on the field together a significant amount of time once we get inside the other team's territory, and especially in the red zone.
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