Rivers? Whitehurst? Trade?

[Kemp17]

Originally Posted by RMANCIL

The LOT is a problem that said Rivers is not playing like a elite QB. He lost the game today.He has to show that he can recover or when the season folds then the club will have to move him .

The defense is playing very well and as young as we are they should get better. We will have to find a CB and we should be set.The offense is the problem and Rivers tops the list right now then LOT.

If the lot is a problem, then why would the first move be to replace the quarterback? Finding franchise QB's is the most difficult and expensive aspect of personnel in football. So while we have these other holes (offensive line, pass rush, cornerback), why not address them and see if Rivers responds to having a better team around him? You have to admit that he's lost a lot of help on offense in the last few seasons (Jackson, Sproles, McNeill, Dielman).

Now, for anyone reading (looking at you Muffin) this does NOT mean that he isn't the problem right now or that I think he's playing great. He isn't. But rather than sell the farm to move up for a Geno Smith or use a valuable first round pick on an inferior prospect like Tyler Wilson, why not invest in the other issues and see what happens? Worst case scenario, Rivers still doesn't bounce back and we have a better situation for a rookie to step into.

That's the course that makes sense to me. Rivers was nails yesterday, even without the benefit of a running game, until the Bucs cranked up the pressure in the 2nd half. The line stopped protecting him and he, being immobile, couldn't adjust (and he made a bonehead decision). The defense never made a play and the special teams gave one up.

And before I would call this young, improving defense "set" I would add pass rusher to the list of needs with cornerback. We don't have anyone effective right now at ROLB and no one who figures to become that person. Ingram is bound to become a great player and I do believe the pressure/sacks will come, but he's not going to ever be a Ware, Hali, etc. We need that ROLB and a corner to complete the unit on that side.

[muffindonut72]

Originally Posted by Kemp17

If the lot is a problem, then why would the first move be to replace the quarterback? Finding franchise QB's is the most difficult and expensive aspect of personnel in football. So while we have these other holes (offensive line, pass rush, cornerback), why not address them and see if Rivers responds to having a better team around him? You have to admit that he's lost a lot of help on offense in the last few seasons (Jackson, Sproles, McNeill, Dielman).

Now, for anyone reading (looking at you Muffin) this does NOT mean that he isn't the problem right now or that I think he's playing great. He isn't. But rather than sell the farm to move up for a Geno Smith or use a valuable first round pick on an inferior prospect like Tyler Wilson, why not invest in the other issues and see what happens? Worst case scenario, Rivers still doesn't bounce back and we have a better situation for a rookie to step into.

That's the course that makes sense to me. Rivers was nails yesterday, even without the benefit of a running game, until the Bucs cranked up the pressure in the 2nd half. The line stopped protecting him and he, being immobile, couldn't adjust (and he made a bonehead decision). The defense never made a play and the special teams gave one up.

And before I would call this young, improving defense "set" I would add pass rusher to the list of needs with cornerback. We don't have anyone effective right now at ROLB and no one who figures to become that person. Ingram is bound to become a great player and I do believe the pressure/sacks will come, but he's not going to ever be a Ware, Hali, etc. We need that ROLB and a corner to complete the unit on that side.

I am not suggesting that they move up to draft a QB in the upcoming draft. I haven't suggested that at all. I am just hoping that they give Whitehurst a shot. No, he probably isn't the answer, but if you believe that the offensive line is a major problem, it wouldn't hurt to have Whitehurst in the game for mobility sake alone. If you believe Rivers is the problem, then again bench him and put in Whitehurst and see what he can do. It is abundantly clear that Rivers is turning the ball over way too much. At this point it doesn't really matter why. The offensive line is what is, and the Chargers are pretty much stuck with what they have now for the rest of the season. Can the Chargers make the playoffs as currently constructed with Rivers as the QB? If the answer is no, then bench him and put in Whitehurst. If you think Rivers is still a viable QB for the future, then I would think that you would want him benched anyway just so that he can stay healthy going into next season.

If Manziel continues to improve, he probably won't be available for at least another couple of years. That is the QB that I want the Chargers to go after. Again, as long as he continues to improve. He has a very small track record, so we will all have to wait and see how it pans out.

[Kemp17]

Originally Posted by muffindonut72

I am not suggesting that they move up to draft a QB. I haven't suggested that at all. I am just hoping that they give Whitehurst a shot. No, he probably isn't the answer, but if you believe that the offensive line is a major problem, it wouldn't hurt to have Whitehurst in the game for mobility sake alone. It is abundantly clear that Rivers is turning the ball over way too much. At this point it doesn't really matter why. The offensive line is what is, and the Chargers are pretty much stuck with what they have now for the rest of the season. Can the Chargers make the playoffs as currently constructed with Rivers as the QB? If the answer is no, then bench him and put in Whitehurst. If you think Rivers is still a viable QB for the future, then I would think that you would want him benched anyway just so that he can stay healthy going into next season.

If Manziel continues to improve, he probably won't be available for at least another couple of years. That is the QB that I want the Chargers to go after, again as long as he continue to improve. He has a very small track record, so we will all have to wait and see how it pans out.

I am not aware of or referring to anything you are/aren't suggesting, I was just making sure you caught that part of my post because I could already see myself getting accused of being a Rivers homer. No aggression attached to it- just wanted you to notice.

Now, here is my rationale for not benching Rivers: we want as much tape as possible of him for the next staff to evaluate and assess. I am not a QB expert, nor do I understand the nuances of the game to the degree I would need to in order to have a final word on PR. But I do know that whoever is brought in after Norv is going to watch every snap of Rivers in 2011 and 2012, and then decide whether they can fix him or if he's a lost cause.

Also, this team is not making the playoffs unless PR gets on track. That's as close to a certainty as this team offers. Yes, he threw is away with that pick-six. But he was also the only reason we were in it at that point. The defense is not ready to carry this team, nor is the running game going to carry the offense. A Charlie Whitehurst led team would have been blown out yesterday.

[muffindonut72]

Originally Posted by Kemp17

I am not aware of or referring to anything you are/aren't suggesting, I was just making sure you caught that part of my post because I could already see myself getting accused of being a Rivers homer. No aggression attached to it- just wanted you to notice.

Now, here is my rationale for not benching Rivers: we want as much tape as possible of him for the next staff to evaluate and assess. I am not a QB expert, nor do I understand the nuances of the game to the degree I would need to in order to have a final word on PR. But I do know that whoever is brought in after Norv is going to watch every snap of Rivers in 2011 and 2012, and then decide whether they can fix him or if he's a lost cause.

Also, this team is not making the playoffs unless PR gets on track. That's as close to a certainty as this team offers. Yes, he threw is away with that pick-six. But he was also the only reason we were in it at that point. The defense is not ready to carry this team, nor is the running game going to carry the offense. A Charlie Whitehurst led team would have been blown out yesterday.

I don't want an end of the season Brees type injury situation to occur with Rivers. The worst thing that could happen right now is that Rivers gets hurt. That just makes a bigger mess out of the situation. There is a year and half of film on Rivers decline, I don't know how much more they could possibly need to look at.

There are always teams that think they can fix QB's. Ryan Leaf for example. So, whether Rivers stays or goes, he still has "value". No, I am not comparing Rivers to Leaf.

[Kemp17]

Originally Posted by muffindonut72

I don't want an end of the season Brees type injury situation to occur with Rivers. The worst thing that could happen right now is that Rivers gets hurt. That just makes a bigger mess out of the situation. There is a year and half of film on Rivers decline, I don't know how much more they could possibly need to look at.

There are always teams that think they can fix QB's. Ryan Leaf for example. So, whether Rivers stays or goes, he still has "value". No, I am not comparing Rivers to Leaf.

The rationale that you're appealing to would dictate that every team out of contention should bench their starting QB. That's just not going to happen- nor should it.

Besides, we're not out of contention. I personally don't see this team making the playoffs, but they're never going to bench starters that give them the best chance to win when the PO's are still mathematically possible and the GM/HC's jobs depend on getting there.

[muffindonut72]

Originally Posted by Kemp17

The rationale that you're appealing to would dictate that every team out of contention should bench their starting QB. That's just not going to happen- nor should it.

Besides, we're not out of contention. I personally don't see this team making the playoffs, but they're never going to bench starters that give them the best chance to win when the PO's are still mathematically possible and the GM/HC's jobs depend on getting there.

IMO, the difference is that Whitehurst can't possible be any worse that Rivers is right now. Whitehurst is more mobile than Rivers. Whitehurst has a stronger arm than Rivers. If Whitehurst turns over the ball, so be it. Rivers is doing a good job of that himself and has been for the past year and a half. The Chargers have nothing to lose.

Overall, Rivers has more "value" in terms of a trade. Again, the concept where teams think they can "fix" a player. The dreaded word, "potential".

[Kemp17]

Originally Posted by muffindonut72

IMO, the difference is that Whitehurst can't possible be any worse that Rivers is right now. Whitehurst is more mobile than Rivers. Whitehurst has a stronger arm than Rivers. If Whitehurst turns over the ball, so be it. Rivers is doing a good job of that himself and has been for the past year and a half. The Chargers have nothing to lose.

Overall, Rivers has more "value" in terms of a trade. Again, the concept where teams think they can "fix" a player. The dreaded word, "potential".

And that's where you lose me. There is no way that Whitehurst would have kept us in that game yesterday with no help from the running game. If he was the type of player that could do that, he would be starting somewhere. QB's of Charlie's caliber only win when the defense carries the team. Can you think of one game in the past two seasons where Rivers stank but we won because the D carried us? I can't.

All starting Charlie would have accomplished would have been to widen Tampa Bay's margin of victory.

[muffindonut72]

Originally Posted by Kemp17

And that's where you lose me. There is no way that Whitehurst would have kept us in that game yesterday with no help from the running game. If he was the type of player that could do that, he would be starting somewhere. QB's of Charlie's caliber only win when the defense carries the team. Can you think of one game in the past two seasons where Rivers stank but we won because the D carried us? I can't.

All starting Charlie would have accomplished would have been to widen Tampa Bay's margin of victory.

The Chargers have nothing to lose at this point. I am at the point where I watch every throw Rivers makes, just waiting for it to be an INT. I could deal with it a little better if he wouldn't constantly make the same stupid mistakes over and over again. We will never know what Whitehurst would have done, because he didn't play. Granted, he doesn't have a great track record. Still, I am tired of watching the same old, same old from Rivers. I want to see Whitehurst play, but I don't think he will ever get the chance unless Rivers gets injured.

[chuckmuncie]

O line needs to be better, then you can run and pass.

[Kemp17]

Originally Posted by muffindonut72

The Chargers have nothing to lose at this point. I am at the point where I watch every throw Rivers makes, just waiting for it to be an INT. I could deal with it a little better if he wouldn't constantly make the same stupid mistakes over and over again. We will never know what Whitehurst would have done, because he didn't play. Granted, he doesn't have a great track record. Still, I am tired of watching the same old, same old from Rivers. I want to see Whitehurst play, but I don't think he will ever get the chance unless Rivers gets injured.

Not true. They have seven games, a potential playoff berth, their GM, and their head coach left to lose. This regime has everything on the line. Trusting all of it to Charlie Whitehurst is the last thing they'll do. They're essentially admitting defeat at that point.