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  #91  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:25 PM
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We replaced 5 O line starters from 2003 to 2004. The result was going from 4-12 to 12-4. It's been done before. Not sure we can pull it off again but that's what we need to get back to the POs.

Kemp's scenario is more realistic but I'm afraid that won't solve the whole issue. We still would have question marks at LT and Hardwick could very well retire which would be a huge problem.
Taken one at a time:

- Gaither: How are you going to pay a guy 4.5M to not be here? We know he's a very good left tackle when he's healthy so keep him for another year and see if we get lucky. But definitely improve your plan B.

- Green: Replace him.

- Hardwick: If he retires, sign a veteran (Koppen, McClure) and let that guy compete with Molk. Hardwick's play has been far from good enough to consider losing him a huge problem. And if he doesn't retire, then again how are you going to pay him to not be here?

- Vasquez: Resign him. He's above average and has shown improvement each year. With the major issues we have up and down the roster, you don't spend your resources replacing one of the starters that's actually doing a decent job.

- Clary: Release him and replace him.
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  #92  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:31 PM
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Kemp, I wouldn't pass up a LT if a good one is there. Gaither cannot be trusted due to his back and other injuries. We're not going to release him but definitely draft his replacement for the future. I'd say LT in the first if the right one is there. If not then OLB. Second round RT or OG depending on the FA situation.

I think losing Hardwick is a big deal because I don't yet see a replacement on the roster. We don't know about Molk and he's on the small side for an NFL center. Like you said a possible FA aquisition.
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  #93  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:07 PM
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FYI. Olivea became a starter as a rookie, he was a 7th rounder. Hardwick too, 3rd rounder. Dielman was an undrafted Dline FA converted to O line and started immediately when inserted I believe in his 2nd year. Roman Oben and Geoff came from FA.

It's not impossible to do.
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  #94  
Old 12-04-2012, 03:41 PM
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Kemp, I wouldn't pass up a LT if a good one is there. Gaither cannot be trusted due to his back and other injuries. We're not going to release him but definitely draft his replacement for the future. I'd say LT in the first if the right one is there. If not then OLB. Second round RT or OG depending on the FA situation.

I think losing Hardwick is a big deal because I don't yet see a replacement on the roster. We don't know about Molk and he's on the small side for an NFL center. Like you said a possible FA aquisition.
Clearly I agree on a LT. I was just illustrating why I don't see us finding 4-5 new starters in one offseson.

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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
FYI. Olivea became a starter as a rookie, he was a 7th rounder. Hardwick too, 3rd rounder. Dielman was an undrafted Dline FA converted to O line and started immediately when inserted I believe in his 2nd year. Roman Oben and Geoff came from FA.

It's not impossible to do.
I'm not saying that rookies can't or don't start. What I'm saying is that history tells us, outside of the first round, they're probably going to struggle as rookie starters. So if we want to upgrade positions along the line (as opposed to just replace the starters), it's probably not going to happen with later picks (outside of round one). Round 2 is somewhat feasable if the right guys falls (like McNeill for us, Glenn for the Bills, Schwartz for the Browns), but beyond that your odds take a big hit. This is why, if Hardwick sticks around, I think we would do well to spend our first round pick on a tackle to replace Clary (likely upgrade), sign Levitre to play left guard (likely upgrade), and find further depth on the market or with other picks.

Gaither-Levitre-Hardwick-Vasquez-Joeckel would be leaps and bounds better than what we're doing now. And if you find the right vet OT then you can afford Gaither going down again.
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  #95  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
We replaced 5 O line starters from 2003 to 2004. The result was going from 4-12 to 12-4. It's been done before. Not sure we can pull it off again but that's what we need to get back to the POs.
Sort of .... really 4 of 5.

Fonoti had started at LG in 2002, was IR'd for 2003, and started every game again at LG in 2004. He had 2 games in 2005 at LG before getting dumped or IR'd or whatever we did with him. Dielman replaced him in 2005 after 2 games.

The other four.

Oben came in from trade from Tampa Bay.

Hardwick was drafted in the 3rd round.

Goff was signed as a UFA from the Bengals.

Olivea was drafted in the 7th round.
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  #96  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:30 PM
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I'd like to see a 2 year process at rebuilding the whole OL. I still say Hardwick is the weakest link on this OL.

First, sign Vasquez to an extension.

Next, draft an OT in round one or two, and draft a center somewhere between rounds 2-4.

Figure the rookie starts at one OT spot, and the other is manned by either Gaither, Clary or Harris.

For the other OG, we have Troutman, and sign one UFA .... if Green comes cheap (as in close to the minimum), then sign him, if not, look elsewhere. Hopefully Troutman wins the job, so we have Vasquez and Troutman at OG's. Green can be a good swing OG-OT as a backup.

If Harris (or Haslam) doesn't show they are future starting quality, then draft another OT in one of the top three rounds in 2014.

Best case scenario for 2013:

LT - Gaither
LG - Troutman
C - Rookie
RG - Vasquez
RT - Rookie

Or the rookie at LT, and either Clary or Harris at RT.
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  #97  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamrock View Post
I'd like to see a 2 year process at rebuilding the whole OL. I still say Hardwick is the weakest link on this OL.

First, sign Vasquez to an extension.

Next, draft an OT in round one or two, and draft a center somewhere between rounds 2-4.

Figure the rookie starts at one OT spot, and the other is manned by either Gaither, Clary or Harris.

For the other OG, we have Troutman, and sign one UFA .... if Green comes cheap (as in close to the minimum), then sign him, if not, look elsewhere. Hopefully Troutman wins the job, so we have Vasquez and Troutman at OG's. Green can be a good swing OG-OT as a backup.

If Harris (or Haslam) doesn't show they are future starting quality, then draft another OT in one of the top three rounds in 2014.

Best case scenario for 2013:

LT - Gaither
LG - Troutman
C - Rookie
RG - Vasquez
RT - Rookie

Or the rookie at LT, and either Clary or Harris at RT.
Looks a little suspicious but may work if Gaither can stay healthy.
Although I'd rather draft a blue chip LT over a RT if possible.
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  #98  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:48 PM
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Looks a little suspicious but may work if Gaither can stay healthy.
Although I'd rather draft a blue chip LT over a RT if possible.
I'd like a stud LT to come in and take the job right away, but might be best served if the rookie plays at RT for a year .... especially if the new coaching staff can motivate Gaither (and he stays healthy). Gaither is going to get paid either way.
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  #99  
Old 12-04-2012, 05:07 PM
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I'd like a stud LT to come in and take the job right away, but might be best served if the rookie plays at RT for a year .... especially if the new coaching staff can motivate Gaither (and he stays healthy). Gaither is going to get paid either way.
If Gaither is penciled in as the starting LT then AJ or whoever is the GM better bring in 5 OTs in reserve just in case.

#imjustsaying
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  #100  
Old 12-04-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamrock View Post
I'd like to see a 2 year process at rebuilding the whole OL. I still say Hardwick is the weakest link on this OL.

First, sign Vasquez to an extension.

Next, draft an OT in round one or two, and draft a center somewhere between rounds 2-4.

Figure the rookie starts at one OT spot, and the other is manned by either Gaither, Clary or Harris.

For the other OG, we have Troutman, and sign one UFA .... if Green comes cheap (as in close to the minimum), then sign him, if not, look elsewhere. Hopefully Troutman wins the job, so we have Vasquez and Troutman at OG's. Green can be a good swing OG-OT as a backup.

If Harris (or Haslam) doesn't show they are future starting quality, then draft another OT in one of the top three rounds in 2014.

Best case scenario for 2013:

LT - Gaither
LG - Troutman
C - Rookie
RG - Vasquez
RT - Rookie

Or the rookie at LT, and either Clary or Harris at RT.
If Hardwick retires, I would rather bring in a veteran center then start a rookie. That's one of the toughest positions to play as a first year guy. Dan Koppen, Todd McClure, or Ryan Lilja. Jonathan Goodwin and Eugene Amano may be cap casualties to add to that list.

I think a marked improvement on the line will require a veteran or do in general. We need to use the draft and free agency to fix this mess.
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