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  #171  
Old 12-20-2012, 02:12 PM
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See i dont get this, he was pushed back at times, but he was not once beaten, and only a few times let his guy close to the QB, and only on a bull rush. He can add strength, but you cant teach the knowledge, feel for the game, length and athleticism he has.
I actually think Fisher has superior technique to Lewan, but I don't see the same natural talent. I'll post the video with my thoughts when I have time. That will be the easiest way to show you what I'm seeing and where.
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  #172  
Old 12-20-2012, 02:17 PM
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Who do we draft, should we draft, what positions.

I am thinking OL with two of the picks.

safest pick in this draft = Star Lotulelei or Manti Te'o

i think there are gems in the Late rounds

so i cant see given max money to someone on the Oline
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  #173  
Old 12-20-2012, 02:30 PM
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I actually think Fisher has superior technique to Lewan, but I don't see the same natural talent. I'll post the video with my thoughts when I have time. That will be the easiest way to show you what I'm seeing and where.
I disagree. Fisher is clearly the better athlete, but Lewan has the superior inline power, with only slightly less quick feet. The difference between the two is the flexibility on the edge, the balance and the ability to bend at the knees rather than the hips, which is clearly in Fishers favor. Lewan bends a TON at the hips and lunges forward, doesn't play with a base underneath him...

We need help right now, and Lewan is at least a year or two off IMO, and you dont spend high picks on guys like that. Watch the Ohio State game to see what i'm talking about on Lewan.
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  #174  
Old 12-20-2012, 02:57 PM
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I disagree. Fisher is clearly the better athlete, but Lewan has the superior inline power, with only slightly less quick feet. The difference between the two is the flexibility on the edge, the balance and the ability to bend at the knees rather than the hips, which is clearly in Fishers favor. Lewan bends a TON at the hips and lunges forward, doesn't play with a base underneath him...

We need help right now, and Lewan is at least a year or two off IMO, and you dont spend high picks on guys like that. Watch the Ohio State game to see what i'm talking about on Lewan.
Lewan's waist bending isn't an athleticism issue, it's a technical issue. He's only played OT for three seasons. He's made strides in each. It would be the first thing for him to correct at the NFL level, but based on his progress to date I don't see it being a detractor for too long.

I am sorry SDF61, but your persistent exaggeration mystifies me. How Fisher is "clearly" the better athlete is beyond me. We're talking about two guys of nearly the same size who both move well. I have been more impressed by Lewan against better competition. He looks more powerful to me and I happen to think his footspeed is a little better, but that's kind of hard to tell.

I've been watching Lewan since preseason. I know what he is and what he isn't. He's not a finished product, but he's also got more upside than about any other lineman in this class. And while I do think that technique would be an issue for him early on, he would still be an big upgrade over what we're working with now. And Fisher's superior technique would not stop him getting mauled by stronger opponents.
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  #175  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:24 PM
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Lewan's waist bending isn't an athleticism issue, it's a technical issue. He's only played OT for three seasons. He's made strides in each. It would be the first thing for him to correct at the NFL level, but based on his progress to date I don't see it being a detractor for too long.

I am sorry SDF61, but your persistent exaggeration mystifies me. How Fisher is "clearly" the better athlete is beyond me. We're talking about two guys of nearly the same size who both move well. I have been more impressed by Lewan against better competition. He looks more powerful to me and I happen to think his footspeed is a little better, but that's kind of hard to tell.

I've been watching Lewan since preseason. I know what he is and what he isn't. He's not a finished product, but he's also got more upside than about any other lineman in this class. And while I do think that technique would be an issue for him early on, he would still be an big upgrade over what we're working with now. And Fisher's superior technique would not stop him getting mauled by stronger opponents.
Waist bending is one of the hardest things in football to correct. Many times it just such a natural thing that changing it forces a player to change their whole game. So its not an easy thing to fix, though it can be fixed, and as raw and athletic as Lewan is, i think he can fix it, but again, high height will hurt him in that aspect.

I think we have a different view of athleticism. I'm looking at Fisher and the traits that stand out to me are more athletic. His balance has impressed me much more than Lewan. He just looks so much more natural to me in space; pulling, on screens and getting to the second level, he looks more smooth and not as stiff like i feel Lewan looks. Looks honestly like a TE in space. But the biggest area that i see is the ability to flip his hip on the off chance he is beat by speed. When i've seen Lewan get beat off the snap, i rarely see him have the ability to push guys past the pocket, because he doesn't turn his hips quick enough at times. The depth that Fisher gets in his pass drops seem superior to me as well, which makes it harder to get beaten off the edge. I do agree with you though that both their footspeeds are very close, and Lewan may actually have the edge there.

The thing that scares me most about Lewan is how inconsistent he is from game to game. He looked shut down vs. Notre Dame, had a solid game against Alabama, and then just got WHOOPED by Ohio State.

Either are a huge upgrade with what we have now. And as a counter-argument to your point, you act like technical things are easy to correct, yet its impossible for a player to add strength in the NFL, which is Fishers biggest weakness. Both are correctable, but i think Fisher is more consistent, and depending on some other things, i think his problem is easier to correct.
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  #176  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:30 PM
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The more i watch of Lewan, the more i see the definition of inconsistent. He can be incredible off the ball, or he can sit there and watch guys go by him, he can get almost no drop and give up the edge, or he can get a perfect drop and cut of the angle to the QB entirely, all from play to play. There were running plays where he completely ignored angles on Gholston, and came strait at where Gholston set up, and ignored that he would be going forward at the snap and didn't even touch him. Its insanely hard to judge Lewan because he's a completely different player on every play. Its almost frustrating. There's times where he bends perfectly at his knees and then the next play he'll get lazy and bend at the hips and completely lunge and miss at the guy he's blocking. Thats whats throwing me off about Lewan, i was giong mostly off the Ohio State game where he looked really bad, and the more film i watch on him, the more he flashes.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:32 PM
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And honestly the hardest part of this thing is that we have no idea what will happen to this team. Right now we're a power man blocking system, at this point next year, we could be a ZBS team replacing almost all our linemen. So who we take could be completely decided by the scheme we run.
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  #178  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:37 PM
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1. Waist bending is one of the hardest things in football to correct. Many times it just such a natural thing that changing it forces a player to change their whole game. So its not an easy thing to fix, though it can be fixed, and as raw and athletic as Lewan is, i think he can fix it, but again, high height will hurt him in that aspect.

I think we have a different view of athleticism. I'm looking at Fisher and the traits that stand out to me are more athletic. His balance has impressed me much more than Lewan. He just looks so much more natural to me in space;2. pulling, on screens and getting to the second level, he looks more smooth and not as stiff like i feel Lewan looks. Looks honestly like a TE in space. But the biggest area that i see is the ability to flip his hip on the off chance he is beat by speed. When i've seen Lewan get beat off the snap, 3. i rarely see him have the ability to push guys past the pocket, because he doesn't turn his hips quick enough at times. The depth that Fisher gets in his pass drops seem superior to me as well, which makes it harder to get beaten off the edge. I do agree with you though that both their footspeeds are very close, and Lewan may actually have the edge there.

The thing that scares me most about Lewan is how inconsistent he is from game to game. He looked shut down vs. Notre Dame, had a solid game against Alabama, 4. and then just got WHOOPED by Ohio State.

Either are a huge upgrade with what we have now. 5. And as a counter-argument to your point, you act like technical things are easy to correct, yet its impossible for a player to add strength in the NFL, which is Fishers biggest weakness. Both are correctable, but i think Fisher is more consistent, and depending on some other things, i think his problem is easier to correct.
1. True. However when I went back and watched Lewan in 2011 and then Lewan in 2012, the progress he had made in one season vouched for how quickly he is mastering the position and alleved my concerns about his development. That's what I based my confidence on that he will correct his flaws.

2. Admittedly a weakness of Lewan's at one time, but again it's an area that he has taken big steps in from a year ago. Much improved during this season to the point that, based on what I have seen of Fisher, I would say he's close.

3. I have not seen much of that either. But mainly because I have not really seen Lewan beat clean off the snap by a speed rush. I am not so ignorant to attribute this solely to his dominance- I realize it's partly due to protecting a mobile QB that DE's are trying to contain. But I won't fault Lewan for not doing something when the need to do it rarely arrises. The evidence remains for me that he can deal with speed off the edge.

4. When I have the free time (probably after Christmas), I will go back and watch OSU. Sometimes you and I have much different ideas about what it means to "get whooped" (I recall you saying similar things about his game Vs. Alabama ). So we can compare notes on that one in the future.

5. I've previously explained why I am confident in Lewan's ability to correct technical issues, so I won't repeat myself. But you are right that neither are "clean prospects" and that both will have things to address immediately at the next level. Which is why it comes down to who you think has the better natural talent- for me that's Lewan.
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  #179  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:47 PM
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Anyone watching the Poinsettia Bowl tonight?
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  #180  
Old 12-20-2012, 04:05 PM
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1. True. However when I went back and watched Lewan in 2011 and then Lewan in 2012, the progress he had made in one season vouched for how quickly he is mastering the position and alleved my concerns about his development. That's what I based my confidence on that he will correct his flaws.

2. Admittedly a weakness of Lewan's at one time, but again it's an area that he has taken big steps in from a year ago. Much improved during this season to the point that, based on what I have seen of Fisher, I would say he's close.

3. I have not seen much of that either. But mainly because I have not really seen Lewan beat clean off the snap by a speed rush. I am not so ignorant to attribute this solely to his dominance- I realize it's partly due to protecting a mobile QB that DE's are trying to contain. But I won't fault Lewan for not doing something when the need to do it rarely arrises. The evidence remains for me that he can deal with speed off the edge.

4. When I have the free time (probably after Christmas), I will go back and watch OSU. Sometimes you and I have much different ideas about what it means to "get whooped" (I recall you saying similar things about his game Vs. Alabama ). So we can compare notes on that one in the future.

5. I've previously explained why I am confident in Lewan's ability to correct technical issues, so I won't repeat myself. But you are right that neither are "clean prospects" and that both will have things to address immediately at the next level. Which is why it comes down to who you think has the better natural talent- for me that's Lewan.
#2: I completely disagree, Fisher is on a different level when he's blocking on the 2nd level (wow that worked out weirdly). He's so comfortable blocking in space, on LB's or DBs. He's one of the better players i've watched in that area. I dont think Lewan is close to him in this aspect. Lewan still looks awkward in space to me, this year included.

I've seen plenty of times where Lewan is beat off the snap. I would post some videos at specific times where it happens, but i'm way to lazy to go pick out those times and rewatch all the videos. Fisher gets beat off the snap less, but every OT will be beat off the snap every now and then, Fisher seems much better at recovering. And I agree, since 3 of my top 5 OT's have that problem (Lewan, Joeckel, Matthews), that a good bit of the time they are not truly tested because DE's are playing contain. It may be that Fishers recognition is quicker than Lewans, so he can get out there easier, on delays or outside blitzes, but i feel that its mostly the ability to get out there Lewan is lacking.

#4: I definitely didn't say that, cuz i remember not watching that and reading the same comment and saying, huh i should watch that game, and still haven't thuroughly watched it, unless i was echoing something someone else said.

I guess we'll have to disagree with #5. I feel Fisher has the superior talent, but mostly has easier problems to correct.

Either way, i dont expect to see a OT in the first round from us, so i'm not sure how relevant this is...lol.
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