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  #51  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:01 PM
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flwelshman flwelshman is offline
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Originally Posted by Shamrock View Post
I can't think of any examples of buyouts for guaranteed money of established veterans. The only thing that memory serves to fit that are typical UDFA's that get injured, and then injury settlements to pay a portion of their current year base salary. Do you have some examples?

I truly think this whole debate is what was reported to be guaranteed, versus what is truly guaranteed. $13.5 mill vs $9 mill. I wish we could see more details online line of every NFL contract. Some media and all NFL agents can view it .... just need to get one of them in our pocket .... lol
No, I don't have any examples, and as I think about it, I was probably thinking of coaches and front office personnel who get contract buyouts, and not players. I don't think, without looking, the CBA allows that, but I'm not certain.

And the bottom line is that difference between the two amounts is the base of this discussion. I agree I'd like to see that info, but I think that's probably protected and confidential, actually. I think most numbers are probably surreptitiously leaked by agents in order to attract new clientele.
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  #52  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:46 PM
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I haven't seen Gaither's contract, none of us here have, so what type of guarantees in it can't be positively known. That said, the entire use of "guaranteed" by agents and sports writers is misleading most of the time. This is my 2 cents on the topic...

"Guaranteed" has many meanings in the NFL and rarely do the "fully guaranteed" $ get separated out from the "conditionally guaranteed" money - or "conditionally guaranteed" money that at some point in time can become "fully guaranteed".

So what's the difference?

Typically in the NFL, guarantees come in 3 types - for skill, injury, and cap. The most common guarantee is for injury. If a player is on a team at the start of the year and then gets injuried and can't play again for the rest of the year, he still would get his full salary in this case. BTW - "vested vets" base salaries are currently always guaranteed against injury IF he is on the team's roster for the first regular season game of the year.

Much less often, there will be a skill guarantee. In this case, the player gets the money even if he is cut due to declining skills.

There are also moneys that are in effect "conditionally guaranteed" which most often come in terms of roster bonuses. If a player is with a team at a specified time of the year (which does vary from contract to contract) , then he is guaranteed to be paid the bonus money.

There are also what are in effect signing bonuses, which are indeed fully guaranteed at the point in time the contract is signed, even if the money is paid out in installments over a period of 2 or more years.

Truth is, the NFL basically allows for any kind of wording the two parties (team and player) agree to, as long as it meets the various rules of the CBA in regards to things like maximum base salary increase year-to-year, etc.

Every one of these types of guarantees, ones which are in effect conditional guarantees, ones which are guaranteed for specific things (like injury), and ones which are truly fully guaranteed are all called "guaranteed" money by agents and sports writers. Reality is that often many of the "guaranteed" money is actually conditionally guaranteed - even when it's called "fully guaranteed" due to the fact that the "full guarantee" only goes into effect if the player is on the teams roster at the start of the season.

Here's a recent article that discusses some of the "tricks" regarding guarantees as applicable to players that could become salary cap casualties.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2024539.html

A good example of the lawyerese wording involving a "fully guaranteed" amount that really isn't is about the Titan's Johnson:
Quote:
He has a $10 million base salary where $9 million becomes fully guaranteed five days after the 2013 waiver period begins (February 9th).
. Note the real key in that sentence, "becomes fully guaranteed five days after..." - if he were cut before that day, the money is no longer guaranteed and is not paid nor would it count against the Titan's cap.

Vick provides another example of two kinds of "guaranteed" money:
Quote:
Vick has a $15.5 million base salary in 2013. $3 million of his salary, which is already guaranteed for injury, becomes fully guaranteed if he is on Philadelphia’s roster three days after the Super Bowl (February 6th).
$15.5M - $3M is guaranteed only against injury now, but then becomes truly fully guaranteed only if he is on the roster Feb 6th. If he is cut Feb 6th, he doesn't get the money at all - since being cut is NOT an injury. If you go back and look at all the reports from when he signed the contract, you'll see it all called "guaranteed" though.
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  #53  
Old 01-19-2013, 03:05 PM
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Default The prima facie example of what "guaranteed" means when thrown around by the media ..

ESPN and all other media outlets reported the following regarding Marcus McNeill's contract extension in October 2010:

Quote:
SAN DIEGO -- San Diego Chargers left tackle Marcus McNeill has the long-term deal he sought all along.
McNeill agreed Wednesday to a five-year contract extension through 2015, worth $48.5 million, with $24 million guaranteed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5682992
Kevin Acee broke down the contract and explained what "guaranteed" really means:

Quote:
Chargers protected in McNeill deal
By Kevin Acee
Oct. 14, 2010

Marcus McNeill’s contract is an excellent example of why we use the term “virtually” guaranteed when reporting such deals.

Based on a total of $48.985 million over six years (including 2010) McNeill becomes the fifth-highest-paid left tackle in the NFL in terms of average per year.

But while it is likely he will make at least $24.485 million between now and 2012, there is very little money ($2.235 million) absolutely guaranteed.

The contract greatly protects the Chargers against injury and also gives them the flexibility to go another direction after every season.

McNeill was almost signed to a multi-year contract in 2008 when he suffered a freak neck injury early in training camp. That deal was pulled as a result. McNeill missed the first two games of the 2008 season and underwent neck surgery afterward.

Those are the only two games McNeill has missed in his four seasons, but he does have a spinal condition called stenosis, which prematurely ended the career of left tackle Chris Samuels after last season.

In McNeill’s new contract, signed this morning, there was a $1.791 million signing bonus and a $444,000 base salary for this year. That makes McNeill's 2010 haul $2.235 million, approximately equivalent to the prorated 12-week portion of the $3.168 million he would have made had he signed his tender before Aug. 20.

But there are no other bonuses.

His $10 million salary in 2011 is guaranteed only against injury until the third day of the league year. Up to that point, the Chargers could cut McNeill for any reason. After that time, his 2011 salary is fully guaranteed and his 2012 salary is guaranteed against injury, which is where that becomes virtually guaranteed since it is unlikely the Chargers will cut him for any other reason at that point.

McNeill’s $10.5 million salary for 2012 becomes fully guaranteed on the first day of that league year.

League years generally start at the beginning of March and signal the start of the free agency period.

Just $1.75 million of McNeill’s $7.75 million salary is guaranteed in 2013, again when he is on the roster on the third day of the league year.

He is scheduled to make $8.75 million in 2014 and $9.75 million in 2015.

The signing bonus, 2011 and ’12 base salaries and the guaranteed portion of the 2013 base salary make up the $24.485 million in virtually guaranteed money.
So despite McNeill being "guaranteed" $24 million, he only received $12.235 million before getting cut before the 2012 league year started.

It's hard to imagine that the Chargers didn't sign Gaither to a similar deal given The Big Lazy's past injury history and repuation for giving less than full effort in college and for the Ravens.

Bottom line is that the $5 million for Gaither is going to be freed up when the new brass inevitably cuts him loose before the start of the league year in March 2013.
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Last edited by JoeMcRugby; 01-19-2013 at 05:18 PM..
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  #54  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:20 PM
Va Bolt Va Bolt is offline
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Of the above mentioned FA's,
Bush and Bowe makes the most sense.Also signing Jammer wouldn't hurt either.
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  #55  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMcRugby View Post
ESPN and all other media outlets reported the following regarding Marcus McNeill's contract extension in October 2010:



Kevin Acee broke down the contract and explained what "guaranteed" really means:



So despite McNeill being "guaranteed" $24 million, he only received $12.235 million before getting cut before the 2012 league year started.

It's hard to imagine that the Chargers didn't sign Gaither to a similar deal given The Big Lazy's past injury history and repuation for giving less than full effort in college and for the Ravens.

Bottom line is that the $5 million for Gaither is going to be freed up when the new brass inevitably cuts him loose before the start of the league year in March 2013.
One would hope this is the case, Joe. That being said, at the time of McNeil's contract, we still had Dielman and the prospects of having a pretty decent OL. Also, due to the lockout situation, the Chargers were in no way worried about losing McNeil and thus more able to play hardball with him...which they did, BTW. With Gaither they did not enjoy the luxury of dealing from a position of strength, which I'm sure they would have liked to have been able to do. We can talk all we want about how could they give him the contract they did, since we all knew his history, but the fact remains that barring that history, on a talent basis he was by far the most talented OT on the market and all hopes were pinned on him "getting it" and maintaining the level of play that earned him that contract to begin with. Since he was a UFA with several other suitors, I believe...but do not know for sure...that it would have been extremely difficult for the Chargers to try and dictate terms to him that give them the contract protections they were able to dictate to and negotiate with McNeil. One must also remember that we had no OLT, and no OLG at that point, and combined with other teams vying for his services, the Chargers were in a position of having to put up, or shut up. Real simple, IMO.

So while I understand what you're insinuating on the guarantees perhaps not being what they appeared to be in McNeil's case, the Gaither situation is an entirely different case. Again, I can't honestly say I know the intimate details of his contract with the Chargers, only what's been widely publicized and assumed. Thus my cap projections have all been based on those numbers.
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  #56  
Old 01-20-2013, 02:42 AM
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Somehow, out of all those RBs, I like Brandon Jacobs for depth.

He might be 30, but he hasn't play much the last few years, so less wear and tear.

Bush is an intriguing option, he could fill Sproles' role. A home-town discount maybe? Time for him to come home to SD.

Knowshon Moreno might asks too much money as former 1st rd pick.
However, knowing he is now 2nd in Denver's depth chart, and McCoy is now our HC, we might stand a chance of luring him here, knowing that he could have a chance of being #1 with all that happened with Mathews.

Other than that, Kenny Phillips alongisde Weddle.

As much as I want Dwayne Bowe, it's just not happening. We tied up too much money on Royal and Meachem already, and we have enough depth so far, assuming we retain Ajirotutu and Danario.

I'd take either one of these: Branden Albert, Gosder Cherilus, Jake Long.

Not really sold on any of these CB...
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  #57  
Old 01-20-2013, 04:26 AM
bolts4ever bolts4ever is offline
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I think NT SS and 1 starting OL .
Casey Hampton fron Pittsburgh would be a really solid pickup NT
And I pray to God we get in the Jake Long sweepstakes thats if we cut Gaither.
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  #58  
Old 01-20-2013, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolts4ever View Post
I think NT SS and 1 starting OL .
Casey Hampton fron Pittsburgh would be a really solid pickup NT
And I pray to God we get in the Jake Long sweepstakes thats if we cut Gaither.
Aubrayo Franklin was actually better than Hampton in 2012 and he's younger. Jake Long has been below average for two full seasons now due to his balky knees. I wouldn't give him a big contract.
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  #59  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flwelshman View Post
One would hope this is the case, Joe. That being said, at the time of McNeil's contract, we still had Dielman and the prospects of having a pretty decent OL. Also, due to the lockout situation, the Chargers were in no way worried about losing McNeil and thus more able to play hardball with him...which they did, BTW. With Gaither they did not enjoy the luxury of dealing from a position of strength, which I'm sure they would have liked to have been able to do. We can talk all we want about how could they give him the contract they did, since we all knew his history, but the fact remains that barring that history, on a talent basis he was by far the most talented OT on the market and all hopes were pinned on him "getting it" and maintaining the level of play that earned him that contract to begin with. Since he was a UFA with several other suitors, I believe...but do not know for sure...that it would have been extremely difficult for the Chargers to try and dictate terms to him that give them the contract protections they were able to dictate to and negotiate with McNeil. One must also remember that we had no OLT, and no OLG at that point, and combined with other teams vying for his services, the Chargers were in a position of having to put up, or shut up. Real simple, IMO.

So while I understand what you're insinuating on the guarantees perhaps not being what they appeared to be in McNeil's case, the Gaither situation is an entirely different case. Again, I can't honestly say I know the intimate details of his contract with the Chargers, only what's been widely publicized and assumed. Thus my cap projections have all been based on those numbers.
The Chargers weren't involved in a great competition for Gaither's services last offseason. Everybody knew about Gaither's history, so protections were going to be taken no matter who signed him.

The important aspect to remember is that Acee used the term "virtually guaranteed" in his tweets. He defined what he meant by "virtually guaranteed" back in his 2010 article.

Here is the twitter exchange a couple of weeks back between Shammy and Acee:

Quote:
Quote:
UTKevinAcee ‏@UTKevinAcee

@jcortizmd The $13.5 million was "virtually" guaranteed. Usually, a player who made $9 mil in 1st yr wouldn't be cut b4 2nd yr.
Quote:
10h Shamrock ‏

@UTKevinAcee Do you have access to the actual contract? The query still stands. Is the 2013 base salary guaranteed or not?
Quote:
8h UTKevinAcee ‏@UTKevinAcee

@Shamrock Let me answer it for you as clearly as I can: The 2013 salary is not guaranteed.
Quote:
Shamrock ‏

@UTKevinAcee Thank you.
Just like Acee had access to information about McNeill's contract (whose future wasn't in question when he wrote his article) while everybody else was spouting $24 million guaranteed, I "guarantee" that Acee had the same access to the details of Gaither's deal (a guy who is pretty much a goner).

Having said that, feel free to wait for official word of the contract details before adjusting your cap space figures.
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Last edited by JoeMcRugby; 01-22-2013 at 12:25 PM..
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  #60  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:33 PM
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I would love to get the Burner back as a 1 - 2 punch with RM.
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Resign DX, MF, Butler. Draft:

Dee Ford OLB, Jean-Baptiste CB, Daniel McCullens NT, Ahmad Dixon S, Trey Millard FB, and a (??) Percy Harvin/McCluster/Corrdelle Patterson type receiver for all purpose yards.
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