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  #21  
Old 11-15-2016, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BoltBacker4Life View Post
Warren Moon, great example. All he did is throw the ball. He threw the ball more in a running era than most teams do in today's throwing era. Remember the run and shoot????

So I guess Montana made Rice and Taylor? I guess Manning made Wayne and Harrison? I guess Big Ben made A Brown and Stafford made Megatron????? Come on Chop, you're way better than that. Yes, a QB can help the progression of a WR but if you're going to tell me that Inman would be just as good as Dez if he actually had an elite QB, then we're just going to have to stop right here.

And you say Rivers has had plenty to work with.....who? His second favorite toy they let go in VJ. Allen has been hurt more than he's been healthy. Name me one other WR he's had that would be a #1 on any other team in the league. His career has been surrounded by second, third, fourth tier WRs along with UDFA. For some odd reason, management has decided he doesn't need a true #1. Maybe it's because he's done so much with so little over his career that management thinks like you.....he's elite so he can make a no name WR better.
OK for starters, I'm very confused by your comments about Moon. I stated that he made 4 WR's that we likely would have never heard of, into Pro Bowlers. Are you trying to discredit that by saying he threw the ball too much ??? If that is the key to making guys into Pro Bowlers, perhaps Rivers just needs to throw the ball more ? Not sure what to make of that.

Also "run" was part of the run-n-shoot offense. Lorenzo White had the 5th most rushing yards in 1992, and Gary Brown also had a 1,000 yard rushing season the following year. Prior to the R-N-S being instilled, Mike Rozier was a 2 time pro bowler, while playing alongside Moon. Terry Allen and Robert Smith were successful running backs during his Minnesota tenure as well. If you are trying to suggest the running game was non-existent in Moon's offenses, that is largely inaccurate.

Next, I'm not saying that all receivers are a product of their QB, I'm saying that elite QB's do make names for receivers we wouldn't know otherwise. On the flip side, if a QB only finds success with a top tier receiving corps, then the QB is not elite.

Rivers had many potent weapons over his 10 year career. Maybe not so much now, but he had multiple years of Gates, LT, Sproles, VJ, Floyd, Royal, Allen. Having guys like that would be more than good enough for true elite QB's like Rodgers and Brady.

The bottom line is, what you are viewing as credentials for Rivers (having nobody to throw to), I view as excuses. In my book, excuses and elite don't belong together. I think the HOF selection committee would agree...
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the Pats cheated, got 4 rings... good for them... we cheated and got 2 rings... yay for us!...

i like that my franchise will do whatever it takes to win, and if all they get is a slap on the hand for it in return, more power to them...

Last edited by chopper31; 11-15-2016 at 04:00 PM..
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  #22  
Old 11-15-2016, 03:30 PM
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Now a question for you BB4L.

How many times over 10+ years has Rivers been the guy to steal a win with final 2:00 heroics ?

If there were many instances, they seem to be escaping me, so perhaps you could refresh my memory...
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the Pats cheated, got 4 rings... good for them... we cheated and got 2 rings... yay for us!...

i like that my franchise will do whatever it takes to win, and if all they get is a slap on the hand for it in return, more power to them...
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  #23  
Old 11-15-2016, 03:36 PM
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There are some factors that get mixed in here though. Your anger at 8 wins in 2 seasons so far is one of the factors. Look at coaching and players/teams Rivers has been on. Not an excuse, just factors.

There is no arguing that Rodgers is elite. How's he looking this year ? Cam ? Dab me.

Any Questions ?
You couldn't be more wrong about the bolded, Freak. I haven't even watched a single NFL game this year, so there is no anger in the lack of success this year.

Also, I have never been on the Rivers train. In fact I have always viewed the 2010 regular season game vs the Jets (terrible clock management on final drive) as a career defining moment.
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the Pats cheated, got 4 rings... good for them... we cheated and got 2 rings... yay for us!...

i like that my franchise will do whatever it takes to win, and if all they get is a slap on the hand for it in return, more power to them...
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  #24  
Old 11-15-2016, 04:03 PM
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Ohe bottom line is, what you are viewing as credentials for Rivers (having nobody to throw to), I view as excuses. In my book, excuses and elite don't belong together. I think the HOF selection committee would agree...
I'm gonna ignore the portion of your post slathering over Warren Moon, whom most of us know is one of your first true loves, and give youkudos for the fine line above. kudos and a
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  #25  
Old 11-15-2016, 07:39 PM
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Now a question for you BB4L.

How many times over 10+ years has Rivers been the guy to steal a win with final 2:00 heroics ?

If there were many instances, they seem to be escaping me, so perhaps you could refresh my memory...
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...gwd_active.htm

Only the eighth most in NFL history since 1960 but hey, who's counting
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2016, 07:48 PM
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OK for starters, I'm very confused by your comments about Moon. I stated that he made 4 WR's that we likely would have never heard of, into Pro Bowlers. Are you trying to discredit that by saying he threw the ball too much ??? If that is the key to making guys into Pro Bowlers, perhaps Rivers just needs to throw the ball more ? Not sure what to make of that.

Also "run" was part of the run-n-shoot offense. Lorenzo White had the 5th most rushing yards in 1992, and Gary Brown also had a 1,000 yard rushing season the following year. Prior to the R-N-S being instilled, Mike Rozier was a 2 time pro bowler, while playing alongside Moon. Terry Allen and Robert Smith were successful running backs during his Minnesota tenure as well. If you are trying to suggest the running game was non-existent in Moon's offenses, that is largely inaccurate.

Next, I'm not saying that all receivers are a product of their QB, I'm saying that elite QB's do make names for receivers we wouldn't know otherwise. On the flip side, if a QB only finds success with a top tier receiving corps, then the QB is not elite.

Rivers had many potent weapons over his 10 year career. Maybe not so much now, but he had multiple years of Gates, LT, Sproles, VJ, Floyd, Royal, Allen. Having guys like that would be more than good enough for true elite QB's like Rodgers and Brady.

The bottom line is, what you are viewing as credentials for Rivers (having nobody to throw to), I view as excuses. In my book, excuses and elite don't belong together. I think the HOF selection committee would agree...
You are really reaching when you add Royal and Floyd. I mean let's get real. Two nice players who either spent most pf their career hurt or were just okay filler type guys. I know for a fact that I am right about his lack of talent when you bring those two into it. And Allen has spent more time on IR then on the field so keep reaching Chop while Rivers keeps throwing to UDFA

So you have Moon as an example, I gave you Brady. What other elite QBs have done what Rivers has done with the lack of talent he's had? Let's see, Rivers has had terrible OL play, average to weak running game, terrible defensive play, terrible coaching, missed clutch FGs, injuries nobody can explain.....shall I keep going? Just take a look at the CMB during his career and the endless :fire this coach, where's our OL, our D is terrible etc. etc.

What you like to call excuses, I call facts. Rodgers is elite....yes? What's up with him this year? Does he all of a sudden suck or does his supporting cast fail him? Where's his running game? Where's his D? His WR's no longer get separation. You would know this if you watched a game this year but we'll just chalk it up to excuses so he must not be elite any more. By the way, he's the 15th ranked QB in the league right now. Must not be elite
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2016, 07:48 PM
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I'm gonna ignore the portion of your post slathering over Warren Moon, whom most of us know is one of your first true loves, and give youkudos for the fine line above. kudos and a
So you agree....Rodgers sucks no. No excuses!
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  #28  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:51 PM
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So you agree....Rodgers sucks no. No excuses!
Rodgers? ....
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  #29  
Old 11-16-2016, 02:22 AM
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You couldn't be more wrong about the bolded, Freak. I haven't even watched a single NFL game this year, so there is no anger in the lack of success this year.

Also, I have never been on the Rivers train. In fact I have always viewed the 2010 regular season game vs the Jets (terrible clock management on final drive) as a career defining moment.
You are really boycotting the league eh ?
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  #30  
Old 11-16-2016, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BoltBacker4Life View Post
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...gwd_active.htm

Only the eighth most in NFL history since 1960 but hey, who's counting
Without digging into this list, I can tell you right away this is not what I was asking,

The 41-24 victory over Tampa in 2008 being on the list is the most obvious example, unless of course the refs awarded him a 17 point TD in the final minute, since 17 is the number on his jersey. L

Last year vs Lions definitely does not count. Our final score was outside of 2 mins, and the Lions were the last ones to score. Their failed attempt at an onside kick sealed the game.

Didn't this year's Atlanta game go into OT ? If so, that also does not fit the criteria.

The '06 game vs Seattle however is a game that I am sure does fit the criteria. The second win vs KC in '08 also is one I can remember for sure as fitting the criteria. I'd have to dig in to the rest to see the circumstances, and I don't really have time for that, but I am sure there are several more that do not fit the criteria of what I was asking...
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the Pats cheated, got 4 rings... good for them... we cheated and got 2 rings... yay for us!...

i like that my franchise will do whatever it takes to win, and if all they get is a slap on the hand for it in return, more power to them...

Last edited by chopper31; 11-16-2016 at 04:22 AM..
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