PDA

View Full Version : Flutie gets no respect


chadjl
09-28-2004, 12:11 PM
I AM SICK OF SEING FLUTIE GETTING THE SHORT END OF THE STICK ALL THE TIME BY SMALL MINDED COACHES WHO STILL THINK DOUG IS TOO SMALL FOR THE NFL. I AM A PAT'S FAN BY NATURE BUT IT PAINS ME GREATLY TO SEE FLUTIE TREATED LIKE GARBAGE. LOGICAL THINKING WOULD HAVE IT THAT IF YOU BRING IN A PLAYER WHO ENERGIZES HIS FELLOW PLAYERS AND COMES OFF THE BENCH TO ALMOST BRING THEM BACK TO WIN...YOU START THAT PLAYER THE NEXT WEEK...BUT NO NOT FLUTIE, I DESPISE THE SHORT MINDED THINKING OF MARGINAL MARTY AND HIS COACHING STAFF. RUMOR HAS IT THAT FLUTIE MAY END UP AS BRADY'S BACK UP NEXT YR AFTER HIS DAUGHTER GRADUATES HS IN CALI...I HOPE HE CAN COME BACK TO NEW ENGLAND WHERE HE IS APPRECIATED AND LOVED FOR THE SKILL AND TALENTED PLAYER HE IS.


I can understand that you feel strongly about this, but posting it in all caps will just tick everyone off because you're yelling at them. Any future posts from you that are entered in all caps will be deleted.
And don't call anyone an idiot here. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if we called you one.

Thunderstruck
09-28-2004, 12:15 PM
Lol!

lego
09-28-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by: chadjl
I AM SICK OF SEING FLUTIE GETTING THE SHORT END OF THE STICK ALL THE TIME BY SMALL MINDED ,IDIOT COACHES WHO STILL THINK DOUG IS TOO SMALL FOR THE NFL. I AM A PAT'S FAN BY NATURE BUT IT PAINS ME GREATLY TO SEE FLUTIE TREATED LIKE GARBAGE. LOGICAL THINKING WOULD HAVE IT THAT IF YOU BRING IN A PLAYER WHO ENERGIZES HIS FELLOW PLAYERS AND COMES OFF THE BENCH TO ALMOST BRING THEM BACK TO WIN...YOU START THAT PLAYER THE NEXT WEEK...BUT NO NOT FLUTIE, I DESPISE THE SHORT MINDED THINKING OF MARGINAL MARTY AND HIS COACHING STAFF. RUMOR HAS IT THAT FLUTIE MAY END UP AS BRADY'S BACK UP NEXT YR AFTER HIS DAUGHTER GRADUATES HS IN CALI...I HOPE HE CAN COME BACK TO NEW ENGLAND WHERE HE IS APPRECIATED AND LOVED FOR THE SKILL AND TALENTED PLAYER HE IS.

Well if NE respects him as you say he does then trade for him. I'm sure the Chargers are open to offers carrying 4 QBs.

rule12b
09-28-2004, 12:28 PM
Is it just me, or do posts in all caps smack of lunacy???

Riverwarrior
09-28-2004, 12:30 PM
Hey now, Im a huge Flutie fan (bought the Flutie flakes and a Flutie Jersy) but even I understand that he is not starting Material anymore. If we had flutie say 7-10 years ago then, heck ya even 5 years ago we could have used him. Fluties knowledge is more valuble now then his arm and thats what Shottenhimer is doing. Flutie would make a great QB Coach and maybe even a head Coach but he is getting much to old to be successfull. Flutie is great off the bench but to allow a team to gameplan for Flutie effectivly nullifies him.

I hope Flutie stays with the Chargers and becomes th QB coach after he retires I wouldnt be surprised if that happend, well if Marty gets canned that is.

Riverwarrior
09-28-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by: rule12b
Is it just me, or do posts in all caps smack of lunacy???

Yes, they do.

Bolts4Life21
09-28-2004, 12:46 PM
Flutie kicks @ss, I do get kinda angry that they just toss flutie around, but he's not able to start game after game successfully. Back up at best, but then what would they do with Rivers?

sbchargerfan
09-28-2004, 01:24 PM
Why Testaverde and not Flutie?

Thunderstruck
09-28-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by: sbchargerfan
Why Testaverde and not Flutie?



Because Flutie isnt on the Cowboys?

Flutie has not shown that he can be consistent as a starter in the NFL. Testeverde has.

ppricca
09-28-2004, 05:41 PM
Inorder to be consistent, don't you have to start with one game and then take it from there? Let's face it. The biggest purpose in professional sports is to make money (if anyone else tells you different they don't know what the hell they're talking about). I here all these comments made about band-wagon jumpers and such. If you truly love the game, then it really doesn't matter who's playing, who wins or who loses. It's about the beauty of the game and the thousands of players around the world who make the hilight reels at all levels. Then all this talk about Brees, Rivers or Flutie doesn't mean anything. You get to go the games and watch the best in the world play. You are a football fan in the utmost sense. You watch NFL, CFL, College ball what have you. These people are few and far between. The majority of fans want to see THEIR team win NOW and they want to see the team win EVERY GAME. As unrealistic as that is, it's a fact. My question is this: Are the owners and management really doing everything required to give the fans what they truly want (which I believe is nothing more than being able to go to work Monday morning with a smile on their faces). Fans live out there dreams through these athletes. They busts their butts all week so they can get together with friends and family on Sunday and watch their team WIN. When the Chargers win, it's as is if those fans were on the field themselves. Boy did I ever get off track. Anyway, football is a business and nothing more. It's about making money. You want season tickets sold out? You have to put a winning product on the field. The Chargers aren't doing that. Sure it's still early in the season but we're 1-2. At what point do you start to realize that something is wrong? I think that point was pretty much after Marty's first season. Personally I'd like to see what Flutie has left to offer the team on the field but that said, I'd rather see Rivers start over Brees. He's had plenty of time to show what he can do and it hasn't been good enough.

Riverwarrior
09-28-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by: ppricca
Inorder to be consistent, don't you have to start with one game and then take it from there? Let's face it. The biggest purpose in professional sports is to make money (if anyone else tells you different they don't know what the hell they're talking about). I here all these comments made about band-wagon jumpers and such. If you truly love the game, then it really doesn't matter who's playing, who wins or who loses. It's about the beauty of the game and the thousands of players around the world who make the hilight reels at all levels. Then all this talk about Brees, Rivers or Flutie doesn't mean anything. You get to go the games and watch the best in the world play. You are a football fan in the utmost sense. You watch NFL, CFL, College ball what have you. These people are few and far between. The majority of fans want to see THEIR team win NOW and they want to see the team win EVERY GAME. As unrealistic as that is, it's a fact. My question is this: Are the owners and management really doing everything required to give the fans what they truly want (which I believe is nothing more than being able to go to work Monday morning with a smile on their faces). Fans live out there dreams through these athletes. They busts their butts all week so they can get together with friends and family on Sunday and watch their team WIN. When the Chargers win, it's as is if those fans were on the field themselves. Boy did I ever get off track. Anyway, football is a business and nothing more. It's about making money. You want season tickets sold out? You have to put a winning product on the field. The Chargers aren't doing that. Sure it's still early in the season but we're 1-2. At what point do you start to realize that something is wrong? I think that point was pretty much after Marty's first season. Personally I'd like to see what Flutie has left to offer the team on the field but that said, I'd rather see Rivers start over Brees. He's had plenty of time to show what he can do and it hasn't been good enough.


While I catch your drift, I tend to look at college Football and Proball as to different games. I mean the level of play between the two is so much different. I prefer Proball and root for my Chargers for the same reason as I root for the US. I live here and I have a certain pride in being a part of that group. Its a sort of Nationalism that goes back to the greek states and the olympics and probably even farther. I do have certain players I root for to do well, but in the end I want my Chargers to win every game they play. Im not sure if thats a bad thing or not.

Johndbr
09-28-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by: chadjl
I AM SICK OF SEING FLUTIE GETTING THE SHORT END OF THE STICK ALL THE TIME BY SMALL MINDED COACHES WHO STILL THINK DOUG IS TOO SMALL FOR THE NFL. I AM A PAT'S FAN BY NATURE BUT IT PAINS ME GREATLY TO SEE FLUTIE TREATED LIKE GARBAGE. LOGICAL THINKING WOULD HAVE IT THAT IF YOU BRING IN A PLAYER WHO ENERGIZES HIS FELLOW PLAYERS AND COMES OFF THE BENCH TO ALMOST BRING THEM BACK TO WIN...YOU START THAT PLAYER THE NEXT WEEK...BUT NO NOT FLUTIE, I DESPISE THE SHORT MINDED THINKING OF MARGINAL MARTY AND HIS COACHING STAFF. RUMOR HAS IT THAT FLUTIE MAY END UP AS BRADY'S BACK UP NEXT YR AFTER HIS DAUGHTER GRADUATES HS IN CALI...I HOPE HE CAN COME BACK TO NEW ENGLAND WHERE HE IS APPRECIATED AND LOVED FOR THE SKILL AND TALENTED PLAYER HE IS.





I can understand that you feel strongly about this, but posting it in all caps will just tick everyone off because you're yelling at them. Any future posts from you that are entered in all caps will be deleted.

And don't call anyone an idiot here. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if we called you one.

how about this, we wil trade him to you for your waterboy and a 6 pack of beer of our choice, now is that a deal or what.

John B.

P.S. you also have to pick up the tab for his grand kids dental work

mrintensity
09-28-2004, 11:42 PM
Flutie is the man, he is the spark that the Chargers lack. Anybody that goes to the games and see's when Flutie's number is called to stand behind the center, not only do the fans get emotional but so do those players on the field. You can see that they get pumped and have that look that we could pull out the game, 9 times out of 10 it happens. I'm not saying that he should be the starter but I do believe he should be put in if things aren't happening. Quarterback by commitee, that may be a thought. If Marty isn't going to make the decisions to get us a win then he could at least put some one in that might give us a shot ,regardless who it may be.

WHITELIGHTNING
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
FLUPOOPY, HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAAH!

ziggyp22
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
Rivers?!!.....hahahaha....this is going to be funny. I get a kick reading everyone thinking that Rivers is going to step in and do well. It will be like Drew Brees Part 2.
Why does everyone say that teams can plan for Flutie? He played 5 games last year and Denver were the only team that really contained him. The other games, Flutie couldn't be stopped. In KC, Flutie shot himself in the foot with the late interception, but he played an otherwise great game.
Flutie can't last as a starter?....what are you guys basing your opinion on.....his age? When and where did he show that he can't last as a starter? Seems to me like coaches tend to not give him a fair chane. Everytime he comes in, he lifts the team to battle with anyone. Does he not?
I really don't understand some of these anti-Flutie comments. It must be a personal dislike because his play doesn't justify some of these comments. Flutie really is the Chargers only chnce at a winning season.
The only reason he lost his job is due to a consussion that he suffered against Kansas City in his first year and he wasn't the same the rest of that year. I assume he kept trying to play through it, but had lingering effects. He was awesome that year, up until that hit.
Then, for some odd reason, Drew Brees gets named starter over Flutie, the following year? He never had a better preaseson....look at the numbers. There was no justification.
Anyways, best of luck to Rivers, but sadly I guarantee you will all call for Flutie, if he is not traded before Rivers gets in a few games. Rivers was out of his league in pre-season against backups.....why would he do any better now with almost zero reps?

TrumpetDude
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by: Critter
NO!

Flutie sucks. Good off the bench but definitely not a starter.

Just go with the kid.

Eggzaggly man. Start the future. The future is Rivers. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

Critter
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by: OldManCharger
Fine, start Brees for 5 minutes....watch him flounder and then put in Flutie.....it will really work a number on the other teams planning for Brees....therefore use Flutie off the bench...problem solved....but get Brees out of there when we still have a chance to win.
Everyone happy.
Chargers 4 life
OldManCharger

LOL.

This might actually work for the first game or two. After that teams will catch on and say, "hey, Brees only plays for 5 minutes then Flutie comes in. Were going to gameplan for Flutie."

Then it's back to ugly QB play.

OldManCharger
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
Fine, start Brees for 5 minutes....watch him flounder and then put in Flutie.....it will really work a number on the other teams planning for Brees....therefore use Flutie off the bench...problem solved....but get Brees out of there when we still have a chance to win.

Everyone happy.

Chargers 4 life

OldManCharger

boltfan14
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
We need solid consitant play from our QB position and the only guy that can do that next week is Doug Flutie. We have improved in every area but QB. Brees is not the answer, Rivers may be the future but WE NEED WINS NOW. Temas will continue to stack teh box with 8/9 guys until our QB proves he can beat them. FOR THE BOLTS TO HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A WINNING SEASON THEY MUST PLAY FLUTIE!

Critter
09-29-2004, 07:57 AM
NO!

Flutie sucks. Good off the bench but definitely not a starter.

Just go with the kid.

ssanto
09-29-2004, 12:52 PM
Why do people go bananas when Flutie enters the game? Because he's the team mascot. Ever seen the movie Rudy? Same thing. People love to root for the small guy, the underdogs. Are they rooting for him because he's an excellent QB? Not in my opinion. Flutie was great in Canada and had a decent year in Buffalo. He's not a starter in this league. Not anymore anyway.

And another thing.....The Jets weren't playing tight defense when Flutie scored that TD. He also got away with a horrible throw. Pipe down Flutie Flakes.

Riverwarrior
09-29-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by: ssanto
Why do people go bananas when Flutie enters the game? Because he's the team mascot. Ever seen the movie Rudy? Same thing. People love to root for the small guy, the underdogs. Are they rooting for him because he's an excellent QB? Not in my opinion. Flutie was great in Canada and had a decent year in Buffalo. He's not a starter in this league. Not anymore anyway.



And another thing.....The Jets weren't playing tight defense when Flutie scored that TD. He also got away with a horrible throw. Pipe down Flutie Flakes.


Breesaholic go away, we like Flutie because he brings a spark of energy to the game. Because at 40+ the guy has more heart than guys half his age.

Now take your cynical self and go bash on the opponent for next game not on other charger fans.

ssanto
09-29-2004, 01:53 PM
Whoa! Take some of your own advice. Who's bashing other posters? I'm bashing Flutie, if you want to call it bashing.

I happen to be a lifelong loyal Charger fan who lives in New England and has seen Flutie from day one. He's not a starter, it's that simple. Call me cynical all you want. I call it the truth.

I also happen to be a Rivers supporter, not Brees. You need to take it down a notch and relax.

moronico
09-29-2004, 03:35 PM
drew brees sucks and phillip rivers is a bum, the only chance the chargers have is to start doug flutie, the chargers are on the move to L.A so they need to lose as many games as possible to make the transition easy, therefor the need to start brees or rivers, end of story.

SDRaiderH8er
09-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by: moronico
drew brees sucks and phillip rivers is a bum, the only chance the chargers have is to start doug flutie, the chargers are on the move to L.A so they need to lose as many games as possible to make the transition easy, therefor the need to start brees or rivers, end of story.
and what in the hell did you just say? i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

HellsBells
09-29-2004, 04:17 PM
Flutie gets no respect? Look at Brees! He is going ot lose his job for his supporting cast not performing! Yes he has made mistakes, but he is still a NFL quarterback who will perform when he has a good team to go along with it.

boltzman3
09-29-2004, 04:48 PM
ALL YUO FLUTI FANS ARE LIVING IN A MYOPIC DREAM STATE. IF YOU THINK FLUTIE IS A THE ANSWER.THINK BACK AND TELL ME IN WHAT YEAR DID FLUTIE HAVE A WINNING SEASON IN THE ...N F L...............HE'S GOOD FOR A SPARK BUT FLUTIE IS NOT A SEASON STARTING QB. TIME TO GIVE THE ..... $40 MILLION DOLLAR MAN THE BALL.... DREW SHOWED WHY AJ DRAFTED A QB.. NUFF SAID

riverhead
09-29-2004, 07:45 PM
Flutie is a legend. I see in him a great coach in this league one day. But he will be 42 soon and I speak from experience, you may still have the moves, you just don't recover the way you used to.

Hey, if they want to pay him (I mean he is still a gamebreaker) for riding the pine then so be it. No sense risking injury for life.

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by: moronico
drew brees sucks and phillip rivers is a bum, the only chance the chargers have is to start doug flutie, the chargers are on the move to L.A so they need to lose as many games as possible to make the transition easy, therefor the need to start brees or rivers, end of story.

Get help. Quickly. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

Mark77
09-30-2004, 09:51 AM
i agree, flutieis a vertern and you can only learn from the best. Let him lead the chargers, let him teach Brees and rivers the ropes, this is the only way that the chargers will even have a chance at being a 500 team. Why dose marty keep flutie around, so he can score a touchdown in the two minute drill and make the fans have something to cheer about? Come on Marty smarten up, look at the future as well as the past.

ChargersfaninKansas
09-30-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by: riverhead
But {Flutie} will be 42 soon and I speak from experience, you may still have the moves, you just don't recover the way you used to.

I'm 34 and play softball once a week, and I don't recover the way I used to!

I like Doug, he's a sparkplug and exciting to watch. This is a young team we have here, we're trying to get everybody on the same page. Pulling Drew now and putting Doug in is not the answer, our problems run much deeper than the QB. The Chargers braintrust has a plan. Have faith that these people who have more experience and that are 235% in the know more than we are, and are getting paid for what they do. It'll come together sooner or later you'll see.

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 12:30 PM
Flutie gets no respect ? He is collecting a damn paycheck in the NFL !! i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

Flutiestruck
09-30-2004, 12:35 PM
Not much of a Charger fan, eh? Considering you want to trade Flutie and, apparenlty keep the foul Brees that has been blowing through our town for WAY TOO LONG, perhaps you are secretly a Raider or Denver fan?

Flutie for QB coach in 2005!!!!!

WHITELIGHTNING
09-30-2004, 12:56 PM
Why does Flutie need respect, he's had a great career and has made more money than I'll ever see (I cant speak for Trump and some of you others). Lets see, he gets to live in America's finest city and collect a fat check every week for basically doing nothing. No, I dont think Flutie is looking for any respect or alligator tears either.

rule12b
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by: TrumpetDude

Originally posted by: harley

3rd string QB??? flutie should be starting with brees as the third stringer. let's not throw rivers in yet, remember he wasn't at camp. we've waited this long for a franchise QB, we can wait at least until mid-season. does anyone think he's gonna be anything but a struggling rookie QB on a poor team anyway??? if so, get back on the prozac...



Start the future and not the past. Flutie uses the quan off the bench. Flutie is happy riding the pine and tapping out new rythyms on helmets with his new drum sticks.

"The quan" geez you pull off some funny sh*t. You know, from the 50 other threads on this same topic, that I couldn't agree more. Flutie, great off the bench; bad for four quarters. Rivers is ready.

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by: harley
3rd string QB??? flutie should be starting with brees as the third stringer. let's not throw rivers in yet, remember he wasn't at camp. we've waited this long for a franchise QB, we can wait at least until mid-season. does anyone think he's gonna be anything but a struggling rookie QB on a poor team anyway??? if so, get back on the prozac...

Start the future and not the past. Flutie uses the quan off the bench. Flutie is happy riding the pine and tapping out new rythyms on helmets with his new drum sticks. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by: Thunderstruck
You want us to start our 3rd string QB?

You wonder if this poster is even a Chargers fan ?

Chargers Q.B. Rotation:

1. Drew Brees
2. Philip Rivers
3. Doug Flutie starring as The lil Drummer Midget
4. The Lemonator

harley
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
3rd string QB??? flutie should be starting with brees as the third stringer. let's not throw rivers in yet, remember he wasn't at camp. we've waited this long for a franchise QB, we can wait at least until mid-season. does anyone think he's gonna be anything but a struggling rookie QB on a poor team anyway??? if so, get back on the prozac...

Thunderstruck
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
You want us to start our 3rd string QB?

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by: Seanpop
Quit messing around and play Flutie already

Why ? He is old and the past. Rivers is the future. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

Seanpop
09-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Quit messing around and play Flutie already

ziggyp22
09-30-2004, 08:03 PM
Rivers is the 2nd coming of Drew Brees. Watch and see.

TrumpetDude
09-30-2004, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by: ziggyp22
Rivers is the 2nd coming of Drew Brees. Watch and see.

You need to get a grip. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

dogflutie
10-01-2004, 02:58 PM
Are you crazy?

He hasn't shown he can consistently start in the NFL? Have you been watching the same NFL as me the last 6 years?

He almost single handedly turns around Buffalo and he got screwed over there. Buffalo made a major mistake in putting the ball into the hands of Johnson and we all know that.

I watched Doug for 8 years in the CFL. It was funny. He could almost score at will. Doug had an incredible winning percentage in the NFL before he came to San Diego. His first year, the team stunk so bad that not Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, etc. could have won in his shoes.

The next year, he clearly beat out Brees in the preseason and Marty chose Brees. Brees started out well but then defenses caught on to him half way through the season. He cannot play in this league. Watch him. He can't pick up the defenses, he can't make his reads in the game. As he loses his confidence, his game becomes completely 1 dimensional - hand the ball off to LT or throw it to LT - watch his head, he looks for LT and LT only.

This business of Flutie being too old to start is non-sense. He has not been banged up and because of this and the way he looks after himself, he has barely lost a step. Regarding the comments of allowing teams to gameplan for Flutie nullifying his effectiveness, this too, is non-sense. If you structure your offensive line properly, you can open holes in blitzing defenses allowing Doug to run or complete a short pass up the middle. When blitzing does not work, having Doug roll out and structuring the offensive schemes from a timing perspective to support this is a winning formula. Just watch the film. He makes LB's, and DE's look ridiculous as they try to chase him on the roll out. He jukes and jives and makes it look almost comical. Maybe this is why the NFL does not want Flutie starting - it is not prototypical.

The real problem is that coaches and management in the NFL cannot admit when they are wrong. The game has changed - mobile quarterbacks are the way of the future. Defenses are too fast and too smart for 3 and 5 step drop backs to work consistently for most teams - especially teams devoid of a lot of skill and experience (with the exception of a few guys like Dwight and LT who is unbelievable) like this one. Doug is 5'9" and this is his only weakness. That said, his smarts and quickness do make up for this. His arm is plenty strong enough - this is another myth and stereotype that has been linked to him because of his size.

If Marty could only admit he was wrong, I am confident Doug could take the team to the first round of play offs. The side armed throw of Rivers scares me - it reminds me of Dieter Brock - it did not work in the NFL. Plus this kid is 22 years old - he could get shell shocked from the beating a full season in the NFL will deliver at this stage and be wrecked for good. This isn't fair to him or the team. It's not fair to humiliate Brees any further either. Cut him and let him get on with his life.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Doug a couple of times - what a class act. How he has put up with the garbage this league has put him through is beyond me.

I love the NFL but what it has done to Flutie is an absolute shame and will be talked about for years to come of "what could have been".

Critter
10-01-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by: dogflutie
Are you crazy?
He hasn't shown he can consistently start in the NFL? Have you been watching the same NFL as me the last 6 years?
He almost single handedly turns around Buffalo and he got screwed over there. Buffalo made a major mistake in putting the ball into the hands of Johnson and we all know that.
I watched Doug for 8 years in the CFL. It was funny. He could almost score at will. Doug had an incredible winning percentage in the NFL before he came to San Diego. His first year, the team stunk so bad that not Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, etc. could have won in his shoes.
The next year, he clearly beat out Brees in the preseason and Marty chose Brees. Brees started out well but then defenses caught on to him half way through the season. He cannot play in this league. Watch him. He can't pick up the defenses, he can't make his reads in the game. As he loses his confidence, his game becomes completely 1 dimensional - hand the ball off to LT or throw it to LT - watch his head, he looks for LT and LT only.
This business of Flutie being too old to start is non-sense. He has not been banged up and because of this and the way he looks after himself, he has barely lost a step. Regarding the comments of allowing teams to gameplan for Flutie nullifying his effectiveness, this too, is non-sense. If you structure your offensive line properly, you can open holes in blitzing defenses allowing Doug to run or complete a short pass up the middle. When blitzing does not work, having Doug roll out and structuring the offensive schemes from a timing perspective to support this is a winning formula. Just watch the film. He makes LB's, and DE's look ridiculous as they try to chase him on the roll out. He jukes and jives and makes it look almost comical. Maybe this is why the NFL does not want Flutie starting - it is not prototypical.
The real problem is that coaches and management in the NFL cannot admit when they are wrong. The game has changed - mobile quarterbacks are the way of the future. Defenses are too fast and too smart for 3 and 5 step drop backs to work consistently for most teams - especially teams devoid of a lot of skill and experience (with the exception of a few guys like Dwight and LT who is unbelievable) like this one. Doug is 5'9" and this is his only weakness. That said, his smarts and quickness do make up for this. His arm is plenty strong enough - this is another myth and stereotype that has been linked to him because of his size.
If Marty could only admit he was wrong, I am confident Doug could take the team to the first round of play offs. The side armed throw of Rivers scares me - it reminds me of Dieter Brock - it did not work in the NFL. Plus this kid is 22 years old - he could get shell shocked from the beating a full season in the NFL will deliver at this stage and be wrecked for good. This isn't fair to him or the team. It's not fair to humiliate Brees any further either. Cut him and let him get on with his life.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Doug a couple of times - what a class act. How he has put up with the garbage this league has put him through is beyond me.
I love the NFL but what it has done to Flutie is an absolute shame and will be talked about for years to come of "what could have been".

Yada, yada, yada.

He is not starter material.

The Chargers are not the only franchise to come to that conclusion.

TrumpetDude
10-01-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by: Critter
Yada, yada, yada.

He is not starter material.

The Chargers are not the only franchise to come to that conclusion.

That is too dang funny and true. Spot on. i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

ssanto
10-01-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by: dogflutie

1. I watched Doug for 8 years in the CFL. It was funny. He could almost score at will.

2. His arm is plenty strong enough - this is another myth and stereotype that has been linked to him because of his size.

3. If Marty could only admit he was wrong, I am confident Doug could take the team to the first round of playoffs.

4. I have had the pleasure of meeting Doug a couple of times - what a class act. How he has put up with the garbage this league has put him through is beyond me.


Dogflutie - You make some nice points......but

1. So he beat up on the JV teams of the CFL huh? It's more than I could do, but come on. Are you going to hang your hat on that from an NFL standpoint? Let's just say he's no Warren Moon.

2. What games have you watched the last couple years? Sure he has zip on the short stuff but you cannot be serious about his ability to stretch a defense. He can't throw the ball 55 yards without coming out of his shoes.

3. You cannot be serious! I would take that bet all day long and buy you dinner out of sympathy.

4. I've met him too and he is a gentleman. That doesn't make him a starter though. Not in my book.

Flutiestruck
10-01-2004, 04:44 PM
Trumpetdude:

Had you actually read my post rather than just jumping to insult not only a still great player, (and a class act guy as well) but me as well...you would have seen that I am not downing Rivers starting. But, I did say something that I regret. Sorry about that.

I like Rivers and want to see him get in there. Flutie being a back-up is fine with me. No one comes off the bench like Flutie. If Rivers is not ready, and I hope we will find out VERY early in the game on Sunday, then I say start Flutie. Brees will get us only one thing....another LOSS.

My main point is, and has been last year and this year...Brees has GOT to go! If Rivers is ready...start him, but Flutie should be #2, Lemon #3, and Brees off the roster.

Just because you support Rivers starting now, it is no reason to attack other posters or a player who has done nothing but help this team (and seems to have taken Young Mr. Rivers under his wing as well) and support the entire cast.

Again, I apologize to you for snapping back at you. It was immature and stupid to say you were not really a BOLTS fan. It was rude, and I apologize to you for it.

Thunderstruck
10-01-2004, 04:53 PM
The mewling Flutie fans' chant for Flutie to be the starter is starting to take on a tone of desperation. You guys know he's finished...you just can't admit it to yourselves.

ssanto
10-01-2004, 05:04 PM
Look at it this way.....We have arguably the best backup QB in the league with Flutie. I like that.

Flutiestruck
10-01-2004, 05:04 PM
A majority of the posts I have seen about Flutie starting have been something along the lines of having him start this Sunday, and maybe the next, and then get Rivers in there as the starter.

My thoughts are that Flutie should be our QB coach next year.

Until then, I am just happy to have a QB who can come off the bench the way he can to spark the team if needed.

Thunderstruck
10-01-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by: Flutiestruck
A majority of the posts I have seen about Flutie starting have been something along the lines of having him start this Sunday, and maybe the next, and then get Rivers in there as the starter.



My thoughts are that Flutie should be our QB coach next year.



Until then, I am just happy to have a QB who can come off the bench the way he can to spark the team if needed.

I would be all for Flutie as QB coach. Better than Marty's lad. In fact, I don't have even the slightest problem with Flutie. It's the fans who still think he's being somehow screwed over that bug me.

rule12b
10-01-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by: ssanto
Look at it this way.....We have arguably the best backup QB in the league with Flutie. I like that.

I concur, and I also agree that he should be our QB coach next year and thereafter.

boltheaded
10-01-2004, 06:52 PM
Anybody remenber Minnesota last year ? enough said!!! If brees cant perform , dont wait till theres 4mins. left in the stinkin game , give him the hook in the first period!!!!

TrumpetDude
10-01-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by: Flutiestruck
Trumpetdude:



Had you actually read my post rather than just jumping to insult not only a still great player, (and a class act guy as well) but me as well...you would have seen that I am not downing Rivers starting. But, I did say something that I regret. Sorry about that.

Just because you support Rivers starting now, it is no reason to attack other posters or a player who has done nothing but help this team (and seems to have taken Young Mr. Rivers under his wing as well) and support the entire cast.

Again, I apologize to you for snapping back at you. It was immature and stupid to say you were not really a BOLTS fan. It was rude, and I apologize to you for it.

1. I read your post. I did not insult Doug Flutie. I think he is a great person and one of the best Q.B.'s off the bench but not as an NFL starter.

2. You did not insult me with whatever crack you made as you did not quote be in any thread ? I am stating my opinions and those are not attacks or do not perceive them as such. This is exchange of thought and dissention without the luxury of being in person. Typing reparte'. Typing this stuff out does not always translate out into a coherent or cogent and palatable opinion. Roll with it in other words !! i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gifi/expressions/SDG_Football.gifi/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

SDRaiderH8er
10-01-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by: boltheaded
Anybody remenber Minnesota last year ? enough said!!! If brees cant perform , dont wait till theres 4mins. left in the stinkin game , give him the hook in the first period!!!!But thats only 1 Game, what about all the other games that he couldnt do it?

ssanto
10-02-2004, 07:27 AM
Not for nothing, but all Flutie did was throw 5 yard slants to LDT in Minny last year. We owe LDT for that Victory.

WHITELIGHTNING
10-02-2004, 08:51 AM
Flutie starting would put him in the high risk for injury group. Dude is 42, he cant take that kind of beating anymore. Let him come off the bench if needed. Get rid of Bres ASAP.

GO BOLTSi/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

TrumpetDude
10-02-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by: boltheaded
Anybody remenber Minnesota last year ? enough said!!!

Anybody remember the Denver game last year with Flutie at the helm ? i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gifi/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

flutehead7
10-02-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by: TrumpetDude

Originally posted by: boltheaded

Anybody remenber Minnesota last year ? enough said!!!



Anybody remember the Denver game last year with Flutie at the helm ?

flutehead7
10-02-2004, 02:42 PM
Anybody remember flutie getting the chargers getting us back into the game with the bears, Beating the lions at detroit keeping us competitive against the bengals,and chiefs,sure he made a key fumble but at the time kc was riding high and were being mentioned as possibly going undefeated? and if the defense had been semi competent we would have won that one. Anybody remember flutie being named co-most inspirational player last year. and the chargers scoring their most points in a decade with flutie LT having his career longest run with flutie Anybody remember winning?

Psquared
10-02-2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by: flutehead7
Anybody remember flutie getting the chargers getting us back into the game with the bears, Beating the lions at detroit keeping us competitive against the bengals,and chiefs,sure he made a key fumble but at the time kc was riding high and were being mentioned as possibly going undefeated? and if the defense had been semi competent we would have won that one. Anybody remember flutie being named co-most inspirational player last year. and the chargers scoring their most points in a decade with flutie LT having his career longest run with flutie Anybody remember winning?




Remember your grammar lessons? No offense but if you can't form coherent sentences how do you plan to get your point across? FYI flutie is done. You said it yourself "key fumble" his fault we lost and he always has key turnovers.

Chargeroo
10-02-2004, 03:17 PM
In the game that you call "beating the Lions", we put up 14 points that day. So, you credit him with a big job well done for 14 points? I bet if any of the other Charger QB's finish a game with 14 points you'll be screaming for Flutie. In the Chiefs game he served up a fumble and two interceptions and the second one gave the Chiefs the game. Nice job that day too. Any reason you didn't mention the great job he did at Denver? You're so impressed with Flutie that you credit him if he's having a bad game. You seem to be jusssst a bit biased.

Anybody remember that there are other players on the team? Anybody remember that Flutie plays on a team? Do you ever root for the team if Flutie isn't playing? Will you still be interested in the Chargers after Flutie retires? In other words, are you a Flutie fan and only a Flutie fan, because that's all I ever see you comment about.

runnall
10-02-2004, 09:11 PM
I think this is the problem with people. Flutie makes ONE mistake, and he is benched. Everyone makes mistakes, but at least when Flutie makes them it's exciting, unlike Mr. Brees who just throws 10 ints per game.

ssanto
10-03-2004, 08:28 AM
I have to correct my last post. That was the Lion game.

Chargeroo
10-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by: runnall
I think this is the problem with people. Flutie makes ONE mistake, and he is benched. Everyone makes mistakes, but at least when Flutie makes them it's exciting, unlike Mr. Brees who just throws 10 ints per game.

You said "Flutie makes ONE mistake, and he is benched" on the other hand "Brees who just throws 10 ints per game".

I hate to confuse you with facts, but here are the actual numbers - Brees has started 30 games and thrown 33 interceptions. Barely over one per game, certainly not 10 per game. Flutie has started 65 games in the NFL and served up 68 interceptions. Again, about one per game. If you divide it out by INT's./attempts, it comes out to Drew serves one at a clip of .033, Doug at .032. So now what do you say? Is it possible that you are actually blinded when Doug tosses an interception? Bet you missed his 36 fumbles too, huh?

Critter
10-03-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by: Chargeroo
You said "Flutie makes ONE mistake, and he is benched" on the other hand "Brees who just throws 10 ints per game".
I hate to confuse you with facts, but here are the actual numbers - Brees has started 30 games and thrown 33 interceptions. Barely over one per game, certainly not 10 per game. Flutie has started 65 games in the NFL and served up 68 interceptions. Again, about one per game. If you divide it out by INT's./attempts, it comes out to Drew serves one at a clip of .033, Doug at .032. So now what do you say? Is it possible that you are actually blinded when Doug tosses an interception? Bet you missed his 36 fumbles too, huh?

You gotta love people that put in the actual time to do research.i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

lucky7
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
One thing everybody seems to forget is that Flutie has a winning attitude, and that is reflecting on Brees and making him a better and smarter player and is why he should continue, to get better. I feel Brees's
play this year has a lot to do with Flutie's coaching him and instilling in him the hunger to win.

OverVolt
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
One good half and the Flutie Flakes are back...and as always don't know what they're talking about.
During Flutie's game last year, Cameron was calling a very different game, many passes on first and second down for him...even passing three times in a row. Why he didn't do this for Brees I don't know (perhaps it was a reverse conspiracy)
The fact is when Flutie is a starter the opposition's game plan is setup for him, and he doesn't look as good as he did against KC...plus he was playing against the CHiefs Hello, it's one of the worst "D"s in the league.
Anyway the CFL is no way to gauge a player who's now in the NFL...very few are good enough to play down here.
Somehow the Canadian weather must effect your brain, please note: Brees has play very consistant all year long, and if you somehow missed it...he's in the Pro Bowl
Oh, just for your info NFL Pro Bowl QB's are not "average, or mediocere"...perhaps you should look those words up?

BreesLightning
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: bossy1
I thought I put this thread was put to bed? Now, you guys are starting with crazy statements again. Brees is a team player? You mean like the time they pulled him against the Jets and he threw his helmet and got angry at Shottenheimer for putting Flutie in. No, maybe you mean when he was whining to the media because he was sitting out the KC Game. Seems quite selfish to me. How has he ever shown team first? Did you see him on the sidelines when Rivers threw a touchdown? He didn't seem very happy. He only wants the team to do well, if he plays. Hardly a team concept. Flutie has taught him lots, except to be a true team player. Now, finally we can rest. We shouldn't even be having this discussion. To finally put this to rest, we all agree Flutie is better, but he is not the future, so start Brees. Thanks for everyone's input.

Do you and hunteraustin dry the Flutie Flakes and smoke them?

Rip
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin
Because of the fact that Drew is INCONSISTANT.

first year he went 8-8

Second Year he went 1-7 before Marty threw Doug into the Starting position

Then this year he went 11-3

Now If that doesn't spell inconsistancy , I don't know what does.



Now Doug , Hell He isn't a model guy for consistancy Either.BUT.. He has the CAREER stats to prove he can be a #1 guy. PLUS. he has been a spark plug for where ever he goes.

Now someone that goes 8-8, 1-7, then 11-3... You can't tell me is a great QB. All it proves, Is ..Again, he is inconsistant, and doesn't have the tools to get the Job done Regularily.

GOD, your a flippin IDIOT!!! (god i hate that movie, but the line is stuck in my head)

You want to call drew inconsisant?? Please then tell me what fruity flakes has done for us?

I really dont give two ***** what he did in canada, i want to know what he did for us?

Ill tell you what he has done. He has gone 8-14 as a starter for us, including a 9 game losing streak to end the 2001 season. He has throew more Ints then TD's and has more fumbles then and QB we have had since Stan.

Lets not forget his excuses after every loss. "If the WR's would get open long enough for me to find them and loft them a pass, we would have won" "the OL didnt block long enough for me to ......" "the OL is too damn tall and i cant see over them" "the defenses we played were too good, its not fair" "our defense cost us the game" get my point?

The guy is a back up at best and will Never, let me repeat, NEVER be a quality starter in the NFL!

bossy1
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I thought I put this thread was put to bed? Now, you guys are starting with crazy statements again. Brees is a team player? You mean like the time they pulled him against the Jets and he threw his helmet and got angry at Shottenheimer for putting Flutie in. No, maybe you mean when he was whining to the media because he was sitting out the KC Game. Seems quite selfish to me. How has he ever shown team first? Did you see him on the sidelines when Rivers threw a touchdown? He didn't seem very happy. He only wants the team to do well, if he plays. Hardly a team concept. Flutie has taught him lots, except to be a true team player. Now, finally we can rest. We shouldn't even be having this discussion. To finally put this to rest, we all agree Flutie is better, but he is not the future, so start Brees. Thanks for everyone's input.

JoeMcRugby
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
It's a conspiracy. In 12 seasons in the NFL, Flutie has never been able to win and hold a starting job.

Everybody's in on it, the Chargers included. Teams would rather keep Flutie stuck to the bench than win. Yeah, that's the ticket. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

toalsonj7
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
What does a person have to do to get the respect he deserves? I am truly amazed that there is any chargers fan that would bash Drew Brees. He was a rather large part to San diego seeing their first division championship in 10 years. To the poster who claimed that "Brees is more concerned with stats...", you are simply delusional; in fact, he is the quintesential team player (takes responsibility for mistakes, handled the Rivers draft w/ class, supports his teammates). I can't believe that I took the time out of my day to even respond to this complete lack of common sense that is portrayed by bossy 1 and hunteraustin.

Hamburglar
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
why do you guys talk about this. you cant start flutie hes old and gonna break a hip in there and brees is good and young so its all finished

bossy1
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
So BreesLightning, you are saying Brees playing with starters, in 16 games, just barely matched Flutie playing with with backups, in only one game. Hmmmm.........you're right, its not even close. Thanks for proving my point.
JoeMcRugby, you are stretching the truth to "try" to make Brees look more effective. You make it seem as though Flutie played 12 full seasons to Brees 4(really 3). I don't have to play with words to compare Brees and Flutie. The only stats Brees may have better than Flutie is completion% and passer rating, which is the biggest farce in football. Flutie is a winner and will take chances. Brees is more concerned with stats, so I am not surprised by this.
Lets see, Flutie has started 66 games in total, with 38 wins, including the poor first season that he played in San Diego.
Brees has started 40 games in total and has 20 wins. I also add that comparing the teams that Flutie played on compared to Brees and there is quite a difference. Flutie has taken mediocre teams to new levels. Brees has done as much as he could with the Chargers, but has not elevated their game.

Finally, we can put this thread to rest. That ought to convince you guys that Flutie really is the Chargers best Quarterback, but sadly is older, so Brees gets to start, so that he can go through the growing pains of becoming a quality NFL Quarterback. The only problem is the pains seem like they will last for a long time. But go Brees and go Chargers on Saturday!

bossy1
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Oops sorry, one last thing. Brees started in 42 games, not 40, so he wins nearly half of his games compared to Flutie winning almost 60% of his.

hunteraustin
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
1 freaking good year by this Fluke... Dont get me wrong though, GO CHARGERS IN THE PLAYOFFS..
But Seriously, 8-8,. then 1-7, THEN 11-3...
Yeah , How about next year you show me his amazing numbers..
Whatever, His stats this year only prove He had ONE good year...
Other then that , he is average , and mediocere.. and BOTTOM LINE.. INCONSISTANT

BreesLightning
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: bossy1
You guys can't be serious. Brees is solid. Flutie is about three steps better. you're right, this is Drew's team now, but only becauase of youth, not talent. Also, Flutie made Brees look horrible last year, off the bench. It was like two different Chargers teams. Also, when has Brees ever done anything in the first half? I'd like to see one game where he came anywhere near Flutie's 200 yards in the first half.

It is fine for everyone to have their opinion. That is what makes football and sports great, but it would be nice to to at least type the truth, no matter how much you disagree. To say Flutie wasn't better than Brees by far last year is biased posting. That is not giving Flutie his fair due. It is great that you all have unconditional support for Brees though.....biased or not.

Week 16 first half

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT
D.Brees ..14 ...10 ...165 0/0..... 2 ..74 0.. 150.3

Week 14 first half

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT
D.Brees ..19 ..14 ...199 1/5 .....2 ..79.. 2... 102.6

agaist KC first half

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT
D.Brees ..18 ..13 ...168 0/0 .....0 55... 0 101.2

against Faiders first half

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT
D.Brees ...16 14 ...189.. 0/0 ....3 ..24 0 ..155.5

Now im done with this "Flutie our best QB" thread. Its not even close

Thunderstruck
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin


He has the numbers to prove he can do what It takes.

Ummm...no...he doesn't. Show me these incredible numbers...and don't show me CFL numbers because, once again, CFL numbers are meaningless. You might as well show me college numbers if that's the standard you're going to use. The CFL is where guys who aren't good enough to play in the NFL go to play.

JoeMcRugby
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I gave you the answer: there's a conspiracy around the NFL, and the Chargers are in on it.

Like I said, why else would the greatest QB in history get shunned as a starter by every organization in the NFL (including the Chargers), thereby lessening their organization's chance of winning games?

There can be no other answer. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

JoeMcRugby
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I've got some, Thunderstruck:

Flutie has an NFL career completion percentage of 54.7%, Brees 61.3%.

In 12 NFL seasons, Flutie has 18 more TD passes than INT's, Brees has 18 more TD passes than INTs in 4 NFL seasons.

In 12 NFL seasons, Flutie has passed for a total of 14,686 yards, Brees has 8,772 yards passing in 4 NFL seasons.

And there's plenty more that go exactly the same.

hunteraustin
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I just dont see how you can sit a guy that had over 41,000 yds passing in the CFL.
and over 240 TD's thrown in 8 Years. Plus the guy can run, something that aside from the last 5 years, QB's weren't in the norm to do.

Like I said, drew Is the model for Inconsistancy.
He went 8-8, then 1-7, then come into this year and go 11-3.
Now for all of you that say , "It's a TEAM sport, It's THE TEAM that went 1-7". Ok answer me this then,
How come when Marty benched Drew after going 1-7 , did the team rebound with flutie for a 2-3 record??
How can you say it's THE TEAM, when Flutie got more wins then Brees Did with the SAME TEAM??

How can you say Brees is consistant, when He takes a team to 8-8, 1-7, and then 11-3 records.??
Again ,that's not me saying Flutie Is consistant. I'm just saying that Brees is young , and He totally needs a little bit more time under his belt.
When you have Flutie on your roster, Why not Play the seasoned Vet???
He has the numbers to prove he can do what It takes.

JoeMcRugby
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Isn't obvious to everyone? There's a conspiracy against Flutie. Everyone in the NFL is out to get him.

I mean, what other explanation can there be for the greatest QB in history getting under 70 career starts in 12 NFL seasons?

And every coach and personnel man in the NFL is in on it - they'd rather have inferior QBs play and lose games than have the greatest QB in history win games for their franchise as their starting QB. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

bossy1
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
You guys can't be serious. Brees is solid. Flutie is about three steps better. you're right, this is Drew's team now, but only becauase of youth, not talent. Also, Flutie made Brees look horrible last year, off the bench. It was like two different Chargers teams. Also, when has Brees ever done anything in the first half? I'd like to see one game where he came anywhere near Flutie's 200 yards in the first half.
It is fine for everyone to have their opinion. That is what makes football and sports great, but it would be nice to to at least type the truth, no matter how much you disagree. To say Flutie wasn't better than Brees by far last year is biased posting. That is not giving Flutie his fair due. It is great that you all have unconditional support for Brees though.....biased or not.

Otis4411
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I agree Thunderstruck with your assetment of The cfl illusion. One other thing I might add, there is no doubting Fluties heart desire and ability. His size however has always been his problem. In the nfl a small QB is just not going to get the chance that a big 6-0 or more kid with some talent is going to get. (.)

HeadTrip
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Doug and Drew are pretty equal QBs at this point, although Drew is a bit better IMHO. However, no matter your feelings on the best QB, you simply cannot bench a pro bowl quaterback in his 4th year. Dougy might have done as well or better, we will never know, but his time is over. Doug had a great football career, and now Drew is starting is great career.

Drew is the future.

Thunderstruck
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
A lot of Flutie's fans originated in the CFL, and they all seem to have this illusion that CFL performance somehow equates to the NFL.

Flutie hasn't done anything in the NFL. Did he get shafted in Buffalo? Yes, I think he did. Is he a good QB? Yes, I think he is. But he is not a great QB, and he has never come close to the kind of consistency Brees has demostrated this season. Brees would probably throw for 5,000 yards and 50 TDs per season in the CFL. It's a lesser brand of football. It's better than college (maybe) but definitely nowhere near the NFL.

OverVolt
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin
Ok, all... I am canadian.. And proudly so. After watching Doug Flutie Rip up the CFL up here and become 1 of the most successful quarterbacks of all time up here,he headed south to The Buffalo Bills.



I think we all know what happened there. He outshined Rob Johnson when Given the ball. He ignited that city , and took them to that fateful game against The Titans (Which Johnson started and costed them their Hopes for that season)

Fast Forward a couple years later >>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Doug Flutie Lands in SD. Where Again fast forward to Present, he has been nothing more then a Second String QB.



Now here is where the meat of my post comes in. In the CFL he Has taken 3 teams to the Grey Cup. He has over 41,000 passing yards, and 270 Touchdown passes in 8 seasons. He alos holds the CFL record for 6,619 yards passing in a SINGLE season!



Now, since Doug Has been on this team he has been a backup, with Drew at the helm.

In 2001. The Chargers went 5-11. With Flutie Starting all 16 games. The next year Brees went 8-8.

2003: Brees went 1-7 before Flutie came in for the next 5 games and went 2-3.

and Finally this year, Brees playing all the games and going 11-3. Before sitting out the last game.



Now can a QB, that goes 8-8, then , 1-7, then 11-3 .. REALLY be considered your starter.

Compared to a QB that goes 5-11 (with no Solid Defence mind you) then sitting back up. Then getting 1 more win the Starter in half as many games. Then finally getting a W this year, in his first start.

ALSO, he has more Career accolades then Brees will ever have

Lates

Evidently the CFL and the NFL are totally different games.
First in the NFL, this is a team sport, the [b] was terrible last year, Flutie couldn't have done any better, in fact he played several of those games last year, and the results were the same...he looked no better than Brees.
While the CFL might be just a QB's game, the NFL is a team game.
You may (or looking at your post perhaps not) have noted with a good team around him, Brees is now a probowler..so what's your point?

Thunderstruck
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: bossy1
I think Flutie is clearly the Chargers best quarterback, as well. Not even close, but you cannot sit Brees after the year he has had. That would be like the knife in the back that Flutie received in Buffalo. I'd rather watch half of Flutie than Brees any day. Flutie is a much smarter Quarterback. I question BreesLightning when he says that Flutie could not have put up the numbers that Brees has this year. Very unfair statement. Every game Flutie plays, he overshadows Brees. Let me ask you a question. What do you think Brees would have done against KC with backups? I think he would have struggled. Do you really think he would have had 199 Passing yards in the first half? Brees barely gets that for a full game with the regulars playing. Brees is a solid QB, but not spectacular. Flutie is a playmaker. Big difference. But, anyway, hopefully Brees does great against the Jets and the Chargers crush them and all is well.

You are welcome to your opinion...no matter how wrong it may be. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Evidently, you don't watch the Chargers much, or you would know that the team generally gets about 80% of its passing yards in the first half and then plays more conservative in the second half. Drew has passed for 150 to 250 yards in a half a few times this year...and the Chiefs are the worst defense in the NFL.

Flutie had an entire season to try to prove himself with this team, and he did nothing. He came off the bench last year and played well in exactly one game and afterwards did absolutely nothing to set himself apart from Brees.

I am so tired of Flutie's fans complaining about how Flutie is some kind of martyr who gets screwed by the teams he plays for. It is getting really, really old.

bossy1
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I think Flutie is clearly the Chargers best quarterback, as well. Not even close, but you cannot sit Brees after the year he has had. That would be like the knife in the back that Flutie received in Buffalo. I'd rather watch half of Flutie than Brees any day. Flutie is a much smarter Quarterback. I question BreesLightning when he says that Flutie could not have put up the numbers that Brees has this year. Very unfair statement. Every game Flutie plays, he overshadows Brees. Let me ask you a question. What do you think Brees would have done against KC with backups? I think he would have struggled. Do you really think he would have had 199 Passing yards in the first half? Brees barely gets that for a full game with the regulars playing. Brees is a solid QB, but not spectacular. Flutie is a playmaker. Big difference. But, anyway, hopefully Brees does great against the Jets and the Chargers crush them and all is well.

BreesLightning
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Brees was 8-8 in his first year starting, had a bad 2nd year and now is playing great. You dont give flutie a shot after the season Drew has had. It just dont make sence, what more would Flutie do?

You are a Flutie fan and thats fine, but you cant seriously expect Flutie to ever be the starting QB again. His time has come and gone, we will not see Flutie as #2 on this team after these playoffs if Drew and PR stay here next year.

spysnipedis
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin
Because of the fact that Drew is INCONSISTANT.

first year he went 8-8

Second Year he went 1-7 before Marty threw Doug into the Starting position

Then this year he went 11-3

Now If that doesn't spell inconsistancy , I don't know what does.



Now Doug , Hell He isn't a model guy for consistancy Either.BUT.. He has the CAREER stats to prove he can be a #1 guy. PLUS. he has been a spark plug for where ever he goes.

Now someone that goes 8-8, 1-7, then 11-3... You can't tell me is a great QB. All it proves, Is ..Again, he is inconsistant, and doesn't have the tools to get the Job done Regularily.

BREES DID NOT GO 8-8 and then 1-7

THE TEAM DID. besides the 1-7 team offense sucked. (to offense but the people around the QB sucked, not LT)

Thunderstruck
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin
Because of the fact that Drew is INCONSISTANT.

first year he went 8-8

Second Year he went 1-7 before Marty threw Doug into the Starting position

Then this year he went 11-3

Now If that doesn't spell inconsistancy , I don't know what does.



Now Doug , Hell He isn't a model guy for consistancy Either.BUT.. He has the CAREER stats to prove he can be a #1 guy. PLUS. he has been a spark plug for where ever he goes.

Now someone that goes 8-8, 1-7, then 11-3... You can't tell me is a great QB. All it proves, Is ..Again, he is inconsistant, and doesn't have the tools to get the Job done Regularily.

You don't invest your future in a guy who's 40+. It's as simple as that. Doug's a good player, but his abilities in the NFL are vastly overrated (by some.)

hunteraustin
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Because of the fact that Drew is INCONSISTANT.
first year he went 8-8
Second Year he went 1-7 before Marty threw Doug into the Starting position
Then this year he went 11-3
Now If that doesn't spell inconsistancy , I don't know what does.

Now Doug , Hell He isn't a model guy for consistancy Either.BUT.. He has the CAREER stats to prove he can be a #1 guy. PLUS. he has been a spark plug for where ever he goes.
Now someone that goes 8-8, 1-7, then 11-3... You can't tell me is a great QB. All it proves, Is ..Again, he is inconsistant, and doesn't have the tools to get the Job done Regularily.

BreesLightning
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: hunteraustin
Dougflutie7.com

thats the website..

as for the other reply from the fellow canadian..

How can you say that Flutie doesn't deserve a chance, Hell even at 41. AGE DOESN'T MATTER.

When Marino retired he was passing circles around have the other QB's in the league.

Now with that being Said, Flutie isn't Marino, Not even in the same league.. BUT he is good, and He can get the job done. Why not give him a shot. That's all im saying.

Combined that with the fact that Brees is not dependable. He is not consistant.

Why not give Flutie A shot????

How can you give him a shot? Have you watched what Brees has done this year?

Season marks

Best INT per attempt ratio in Charger history
Best season passer rating in Charger history
Best TD/Int ratio in Charger history
2nd best TD's in a season in Charger history
Best pass % for a season in Charger history
Ties for most games won by a starting QB in Charger History

want me to continue?...

Flutie is a fine QB and a fine Human being but there is no way Flutie is capable of having done what Brees has done this year. How can you give Flutie a shot with these accomplishments for Drew

hunteraustin
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Dougflutie7.com

thats the website..

as for the other reply from the fellow canadian..

How can you say that Flutie doesn't deserve a chance, Hell even at 41. AGE DOESN'T MATTER.

When Marino retired he was passing circles around have the other QB's in the league.
Now with that being Said, Flutie isn't Marino, Not even in the same league.. BUT he is good, and He can get the job done. Why not give him a shot. That's all im saying.
Combined that with the fact that Brees is not dependable. He is not consistant.
Why not give Flutie A shot????

stacey
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
I have a young son who is a big Flutie fan. Does anyone know if Doug Flutie has a website ?

BreesLightning
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Im also a Canadian, please dont compare CFL stats to NFL stats. Brees is 25, Flutie is 41. There is no way Flutie will be the chargers starting QB, not now, not next year. We have enough problems deciding who should stay and who should go (between PR and Brees), no need to throw Flutie into the starting QB mix.

Flutie has had a great career, with all he has done in the CFL and has been a valuable member of the Bills aswell as our chargers. His time is over as a starter on any NFL team, let it go!!

hunteraustin
01-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Ok, all... I am canadian.. And proudly so. After watching Doug Flutie Rip up the CFL up here and become 1 of the most successful quarterbacks of all time up here,he headed south to The Buffalo Bills.

I think we all know what happened there. He outshined Rob Johnson when Given the ball. He ignited that city , and took them to that fateful game against The Titans (Which Johnson started and costed them their Hopes for that season)
Fast Forward a couple years later >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Doug Flutie Lands in SD. Where Again fast forward to Present, he has been nothing more then a Second String QB.

Now here is where the meat of my post comes in. In the CFL he Has taken 3 teams to the Grey Cup. He has over 41,000 passing yards, and 270 Touchdown passes in 8 seasons. He alos holds the CFL record for 6,619 yards passing in a SINGLE season!

Now, since Doug Has been on this team he has been a backup, with Drew at the helm.
In 2001. The Chargers went 5-11. With Flutie Starting all 16 games. The next year Brees went 8-8.
2003: Brees went 1-7 before Flutie came in for the next 5 games and went 2-3.
and Finally this year, Brees playing all the games and going 11-3. Before sitting out the last game.

Now can a QB, that goes 8-8, then , 1-7, then 11-3 .. REALLY be considered your starter.
Compared to a QB that goes 5-11 (with no Solid Defence mind you) then sitting back up. Then getting 1 more win the Starter in half as many games. Then finally getting a W this year, in his first start.
ALSO, he has more Career accolades then Brees will ever have
Lates

threeruns
03-14-2005, 02:04 AM
Their are many great players who don't get the chance to play because there are only so many positions. Rational thought does not dominate who gets picked for a position most of the time. It is whether the coach likes you or your style of play, not whether you are the best or not. Look at all the loser coaches or owners have picked in pro sports history. As for the CFL being inferior, that's bs. Years ago CFL teams played NFL or AFL teams and did que well against them. I know it was many years ago but i think it still applies. There are many great players to go around in football and i still think CFL teans could kick NFL butt.

kingporterblood
03-14-2005, 01:18 PM
Fluties` great years are behind him in Canada and BC he has been a good teacher for the young QB`s such as Brees and PR but it`s time for him to move on for the better of our team.

tmvalence4
03-15-2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by: BreesLightning

Originally posted by: hunteraustin

Dougflutie7.com



thats the website..



as for the other reply from the fellow canadian..



How can you say that Flutie doesn't deserve a chance, Hell even at 41. AGE DOESN'T MATTER.



When Marino retired he was passing circles around have the other QB's in the league.



Now with that being Said, Flutie isn't Marino, Not even in the same league.. BUT he is good, and He can get the job done. Why not give him a shot. That's all im saying.



Combined that with the fact that Brees is not dependable. He is not consistant.



Why not give Flutie A shot????



How can you give him a shot? Have you watched what Brees has done this year?



Season marks



Best INT per attempt ratio in Charger history

Best season passer rating in Charger history

Best TD/Int ratio in Charger history

2nd best TD's in a season in Charger history

Best pass % for a season in Charger history

Ties for most games won by a starting QB in Charger History



want me to continue?...



Flutie is a fine QB and a fine Human being but there is no way Flutie is capable of having done what Brees has done this year. How can you give Flutie a shot with these accomplishments for Drew

Well put!!! I'm tripping on all the people who are coming out talking s@#! about Brees again!! Whats wrong with you guys??? The same people that talked crap in the beginning of the season last year,GOT PUNKED by Brees and JUMPED on bandwagon as HE took us to the playoffs!!! NOTE the stats above!!! Now you ALL seem to have temporary amnesia as to what happend and are saying the same S@#$ as last season AGAIN.. Play the kid this,40 million dollar man that (for what I might add,He's done NOTHING to earn it yet!)So I'm going to sit back and watch Drew THROWit in your faces just like last season and laugh my A@@ off AGAIN!! Then when you jump back on the wagon I'm going to call you out AGAIN(you know who you are) just like last year..It's kind of sad and a little scary to know there are so many fans out there that live in the moment and listen to all the hype.. Vick is A legend allready because why?They tell you so... What were his stats last year??? Compared to Brees?? Flutie was to small to play in the NFL THEY say,all the drones say yeah,yeah he's to small............ HEY EVER HEAR OF FRAN TARKINTON.... I think he's a hall of fame QB,I could be wrong though...FLUTIE was a winner every where he went ,bottom line deal with it..Brees , the stats above say all that needs to be said.. But Im sure you guys would rather have vick huh..BAAAAAAAA just follow the herd you'll be OK... NEO ,NEO can you hear me?? It's Morphious.. Wich pill do YOU TAKE.... BAAAAAAAA Flutie sucks , Brees does too, Michael Vick is the GREATEST player in the NFL........WE NEED a new stadium.........Dont pay attention to OUR SCHOOLS being bad,homeless VETS on the streets... BBAAAAAAAAA...VICK has changed the way the QB position has been played ..There have been NO OTHER great scrammbling QBs,BAAAAAAAA... LOL

tmvalence4
03-15-2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by: BreesLightning

Originally posted by: bossy1

I thought I put this thread was put to bed? Now, you guys are starting with crazy statements again. Brees is a team player? You mean like the time they pulled him against the Jets and he threw his helmet and got angry at Shottenheimer for putting Flutie in. No, maybe you mean when he was whining to the media because he was sitting out the KC Game. Seems quite selfish to me. How has he ever shown team first? Did you see him on the sidelines when Rivers threw a touchdown? He didn't seem very happy. He only wants the team to do well, if he plays. Hardly a team concept. Flutie has taught him lots, except to be a true team player. Now, finally we can rest. We shouldn't even be having this discussion. To finally put this to rest, we all agree Flutie is better, but he is not the future, so start Brees. Thanks for everyone's input.



Do you and hunteraustin dry the Flutie Flakes and smoke them?

HAAAAAAAAAA .. Thats FNN Hilarious!!! Good job!!

cflwantsyou
03-16-2005, 12:35 PM
Well then, let's get him back in the CFL where he can once again be a starter!!

Otis4411
03-16-2005, 07:50 PM
I'm curious, are any of you guy's bowing down to Flutie's greatness over 40 yourselve's?? I am and I can tell ya, he can't start in the nfl and play week end and week out. Chit happens, deal with it. Doug Flutie was as good a qb as maybe ever played in the nfl. Yes he was judged by his size in no real fairness to him. But when he did get to play I really don't remember him seriously challenging for a superbowl. The teams he was with may have had something to do with that, but at 42 yrs old don't cry for Doug Flutie. He will make a great play by play guy or commentator. He would be a fool to want to get into coaching.

BreesOverrated
03-23-2005, 03:13 PM
My user name says it all.

Guff
03-23-2005, 04:19 PM
I think some of you Breesians ('Roo, am I allowed to use that term?) need a good dose of Guffian Statistics.

Against the 2004 top 15 pass defenses (measured by QB rating allowed), Drew Brees had a QB Rating of 67.5.

If someone wants to point to all of Brees' statistical accomplishments, perhaps they can address the one I just mentioned.

Can't say it gives me a big, warm, fuzzy feeling as we are about to embark on a more difficult schedule this year.

Perhaps that is why AJ didn't go long-term with Brees - he believes in Guffian Statistics.

kiwibolt
03-23-2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by: Guff

Against the 2004 top 15 pass defenses (measured by QB rating allowed), Drew Brees had a QB Rating of 67.5.


Which is of course, why they were the top 15 pass defenses in the league. If every QB put up huge numbers against them, then I guess they wouldn't be considered very good pass defenses would they?

i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

I haven't done the research myself (nor will I), and I'm sure that you can find one or two QB's who threw well against these "top 15" teams, but I would be interested to see what the average QB rating for opposing QB's against the top pass defenses ended up being. THAT number, compared to what Drew put up, might be a useable statistic.

All the Flutie Mouseketeers need to just relax a bit and realize that Doug is what he is....the best backup QB in the NFL and probably the most succesful QB in CFL history. Nothing more, nothing less.i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

Guff
03-23-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by: kiwibolt

Originally posted by: Guff



Against the 2004 top 15 pass defenses (measured by QB rating allowed), Drew Brees had a QB Rating of 67.5.





Which is of course, why they were the top 15 pass defenses in the league. If every QB put up huge numbers against them, then I guess they wouldn't be considered very good pass defenses would they?







I haven't done the research myself (nor will I), and I'm sure that you can find one or two QB's who threw well against these "top 15" teams, but I would be interested to see what the average QB rating for opposing QB's against the top pass defenses ended up being. THAT number, compared to what Drew put up, might be a useable statistic.



All the Flutie Mouseketeers need to just relax a bit and realize that Doug is what he is....the best backup QB in the NFL and probably the most succesful QB in CFL history. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was mistaken. Brees had a QBR of 66.5 against these teams. And I do have the additional info that you requested. Of the 5 games Brees played against Top 15 teams, they had an aggregate average QB rating allowed of 76.7.

What that means is that an average NFL QB should be expected to get a 76.6 QB rating against these teams. An above average QB should generally get something like ohhhh 82 QBR. A below average should get something like a 70 (I'm just saying for illustrative purposes).

So, for Brees to be that underwhelming against these teams is troubling. Was it random bad luck? Or is Brees' abilities somewhat limited? He was a killer against bad teams... no doubt about it... but I am curious if he can take it to the next level and excel against the best.

Should be an interesting '05 campaign.

mcc2mobile
03-24-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by: Guff

Originally posted by: kiwibolt

[quote]
Originally posted by: Guff
Against the 2004 top 15 pass defenses (measured by QB rating allowed), Drew Brees had a QB Rating of 67.5.



I was mistaken. Brees had a QBR of 66.5 against these teams. And I do have the additional info that you requested. Of the 5 games Brees played against Top 15 teams, they had an aggregate average QB rating allowed of 76.7.



What that means is that an average NFL QB should be expected to get a 76.6 QB rating against these teams. An above average QB should generally get something like ohhhh 82 QBR. A below average should get something like a 70 (I'm just saying for illustrative purposes).



So, for Brees to be that underwhelming against these teams is troubling. Was it random bad luck? Or is Brees' abilities somewhat limited? He was a killer against bad teams... no doubt about it... but I am curious if he can take it to the next level and excel against the best.



Should be an interesting '05 campaign.

I would say that was a balanced presentation of the facts.

kiwibolt
03-24-2005, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by: Guff




I was mistaken. Brees had a QBR of 66.5 against these teams. And I do have the additional info that you requested. Of the 5 games Brees played against Top 15 teams, they had an aggregate average QB rating allowed of 76.7.

So, for Brees to be that underwhelming against these teams is troubling. Was it random bad luck? Or is Brees' abilities somewhat limited? He was a killer against bad teams... no doubt about it... but I am curious if he can take it to the next level and excel against the best.

Should be an interesting '05 campaign.[/quote]

Should be interesting indeed. I'm sure you took into account things like home vs away, weather conditions and whether LT was healthy or not.....?

I'm not going to argue stats with you, because you obviously do quite a bit more research than I do. The only stat that matters to me is Wins and Losses. Drew lead the team to the Playoffs and played fantastic (minus the first quarter) in his playoff game. Stats have a place, but leadership and the ability to win games is much more important in my book.
i/expressions/SDG_Bolt.gif

lu4449
03-24-2005, 03:26 PM
Ok, Guff, you are obviously using games from all three years that DB played since you quote the "top 15" passing defenses. What you fail to point out is that there is a learning curve with QBs and it doesn't matter which QB you pick, their stats generally improve after they get a couple years under their belt.

I agree with Kiwi, the only stats that matter are Ws. It's hard to quantify heart, desire, and leadership. And you being the ultimate Flutie fan should understand that better than most.

Guff
03-24-2005, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by: kiwibolt

Originally posted by: Guff









I was mistaken. Brees had a QBR of 66.5 against these teams. And I do have the additional info that you requested. Of the 5 games Brees played against Top 15 teams, they had an aggregate average QB rating allowed of 76.7.



So, for Brees to be that underwhelming against these teams is troubling. Was it random bad luck? Or is Brees' abilities somewhat limited? He was a killer against bad teams... no doubt about it... but I am curious if he can take it to the next level and excel against the best.



Should be an interesting '05 campaign.



Should be interesting indeed. I'm sure you took into account things like home vs away, weather conditions and whether LT was healthy or not.....?



I'm not going to argue stats with you, because you obviously do quite a bit more research than I do. The only stat that matters to me is Wins and Losses. Drew lead the team to the Playoffs and played fantastic (minus the first quarter) in his playoff game. Stats have a place, but leadership and the ability to win games is much more important in my book.

[/quote]

I didn't look at home vs away, weather conditions, health of LT etc.... I think it would be a miraculous stroke if all these bad things only happen when we're playing a good pass defense.

If it's just wins and losses that you're concerned about, we only went 1-5 against playoff teams (not saying that's just because of Brees). Again, I find that to be a troubling sign.

We all want to go to the next level. Hey, last year exceeded everyone's expectations and perhaps we shouldn't be so greedy but I bring this stuff up because I don't think the Chargers were as good as their record nor do I think Brees is as good as his QBR from last year.

Guff
03-24-2005, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by: lu4449
Ok, Guff, you are obviously using games from all three years that DB played since you quote the "top 15" passing defenses. What you fail to point out is that there is a learning curve with QBs and it doesn't matter which QB you pick, their stats generally improve after they get a couple years under their belt.



I agree with Kiwi, the only stats that matter are Ws. It's hard to quantify heart, desire, and leadership. And you being the ultimate Flutie fan should understand that better than most.

Lu, those stats were strictly from 2004. It's amazing that Brees gets a QBR of 104 overall, but against the Top 15 teams, it was only 66.5.

Against the rest of the league, he had a whopping 123.2 QBR.

I don't think I've ever seen such a gaping difference like this ever.

lca9900
03-24-2005, 04:11 PM
Guff, since you are great at finding these stats. I am curious how the other top QB did against the top 15 teams. Can you list those stats as well? Thanks.

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by: Guff

Originally posted by: lu4449

Ok, Guff, you are obviously using games from all three years that DB played since you quote the "top 15" passing defenses. What you fail to point out is that there is a learning curve with QBs and it doesn't matter which QB you pick, their stats generally improve after they get a couple years under their belt.







I agree with Kiwi, the only stats that matter are Ws. It's hard to quantify heart, desire, and leadership. And you being the ultimate Flutie fan should understand that better than most.



Lu, those stats were strictly from 2004. It's amazing that Brees gets a QBR of 104 overall, but against the Top 15 teams, it was only 66.5.



Against the rest of the league, he had a whopping 123.2 QBR.



I don't think I've ever seen such a gaping difference like this ever.

Okay Guff. Time to call you on your nonsense.

What you are doing is throwing out stats without context. "Against Top-15 Pass Defenses, Brees has an "X" Qb rating, which is bad!"

You make it sound as if Brees always struggles against Top-15 Pass defenses, which simply is a lie.

Against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (the #1 pass defense in the NFL) he had a QBR of 96.3.
His QB rating against the Browns was 149.3. I'll grant the Chargers barely threw against the Browns, but hey--they're a Top-15 pass defense. Right? I should do like you do, and throw out the stat with no context but hey...some of us actually care about the truth more than about personal crusades.

When you say Drew "struggled" against Top-15 pass defenses last year, it would be much more accurate to say "Drew struggled early in the year." His two worst games were against the Jets and the Broncos in weeks 2 and 3, when he had a cumulative QBR of around 47.0.

For the remainder of the season, including the playoffs, his QBR against Top-15 pass defenses was a very respectable 89.4.

And yes, I am including the playoffs because...umm...playoff games are actually more important than regular season games.

Your sample is too small anyway. The Jaguars were a Top-10 pass defense at the time we played them. They finished #16 in pass defense, still in the upper half of the league. Drew had a QBR of 116.0 against the Jaguars.

Funny how if you actually look at games instead of an arbitrary grouping of numbers that benefit your cause, suddenly the numbers don't say what you are saying they say.

Guff
03-24-2005, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by: lca9900
Guff, since you are great at finding these stats. I am curious how the other top QB did against the top 15 teams. Can you list those stats as well? Thanks.

Actually, someone did ask me that before and I did do the analysis. Let me see if I can smoke them up from the other site... should take but a minute... ahh, here it is. Here's a link to an extended discussion on this: http://www.glorifythepast.com/...showthread.php?t=5165
(http://www.glorifythepast.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5165
)

And here's what you were asking about:

QUOTE

Let's see.

Manning (vs Bal, NE, SD, Chi, Den - 3 of which are Top 10):

81/136, 1,105 Yards, 9 TD, 3 Int
QB Rating: 98.4

McNabb (vs Bal, Pit, Car, Was x 2, Chi - 5 of which are Top 10):

110/185, 1,256 Yards, 7 TD, 5 Int
QB Rating: 81.3

Vick (vs TB x 2, Ari, Car x 2, SD, Den, Sea - 4 of which are Top 10):

88/161, 1,184 Yards, 8 TD, 7 Int
QB Rating: 76.7

OK, I'm statted out (thank goodness ESPN charts are easily copied to Excel!). But it looks like the "top QBs" aren't crumbling against the top pass defenses.

UNQUOTE

Guff
03-24-2005, 04:41 PM
Thunderstruck:

I was quite clear in stating that when I said "Top 15 Pass Defenses", I was basing that on the QB Rating that these pass defenses gave up.

If you think ranking pass defenses based simply on yards given up is more relevant, that's fine. I would disagree strongly with you on that point.

Is the sample size too small? Perhaps. Is bringing up the "trend" a valid point? Perhaps. That's why I am interested to see if this theory holds up in 2005. It seemed like quite a big difference in QBR for Brees in 2004 and I agree that a bigger sample size is needed before we can make a valid conclusion on this.

I don't plan on digging back to 2002 or 2003 because I'm sure people would throw out those "developing year" stats anyway.

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by: Guff

Manning (vs Bal, NE, SD, Chi, Den - 3 of which are Top 10):



81/136, 1,105 Yards, 9 TD, 3 Int

QB Rating: 98.4



McNabb (vs Bal, Pit, Car, Was x 2, Chi - 5 of which are Top 10):



110/185, 1,256 Yards, 7 TD, 5 Int

QB Rating: 81.3



Vick (vs TB x 2, Ari, Car x 2, SD, Den, Sea - 4 of which are Top 10):



88/161, 1,184 Yards, 8 TD, 7 Int

QB Rating: 76.7



OK, I'm statted out (thank goodness ESPN charts are easily copied to Excel!). But it looks like the "top QBs" aren't crumbling against the top pass defenses.



UNQUOTE

Well, Guff...now we can completely throw out all your stats. You are basing your Brees stats on Top-15 pass defenses, and then basing your stats for McNabb, Manning and Vick on top 15 overall defenses? Top-15 overrated defenses? Top-15 in in the NFC defenses? What exactly is your measuring stick for "Top-15" because Seattle, San Diego, and Carolina are nowhere near top-15 pass defenses or even top-15 overall, and Chicago is exactly #15 in pass defense, and 21st in overall defense....the Bears allowed exactly one fewer passing yard per game than the Jaguars (#16,) who you don't count in Brees' favor and who had the #11 overall defense. Good job skewing the numbers in your favor.

Guff
03-24-2005, 04:51 PM
Thunderstruck... take a breath there, big guy. Cool down.

OK, when I say "Top 15 Pass Defense", I measured it by the QB Rating that the defense gives up.

Here's a link to the list for your information: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...rue&season=2&year=2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teampass&sort=rat&pos=def&league=nfl&order=true&season=2&year=2004)

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by: Guff
Thunderstruck:



I was quite clear in stating that when I said "Top 15 Pass Defenses", I was basing that on the QB Rating that these pass defenses gave up.



If you think ranking pass defenses based simply on yards given up is more relevant, that's fine. I would disagree strongly with you on that point.



Is the sample size too small? Perhaps. Is bringing up the "trend" a valid point? Perhaps. That's why I am interested to see if this theory holds up in 2005. It seemed like quite a big difference in QBR for Brees in 2004 and I agree that a bigger sample size is needed before we can make a valid conclusion on this.



I don't plan on digging back to 2002 or 2003 because I'm sure people would throw out those "developing year" stats anyway.

It would be a "trend" if the actual "trend" didn't point to Brees improving in the most recent games against Top-15 defenses. But I forgot...you are the one who determines the classification of a Top-15 pass defense. In your world, the Chargers, who gave up over 250 ypg through the air and finished 31st in the NFL in pass defense, are actually a Top-15 pass defense. The Seahawks, who gave up 225 YPG and more TD passes than 20 other teams, are actually a Top-15 pass defense. You are picking and choosing stats to argue your cause and then totally ignoring contrary stats...and you have the nerve to use the word "trend?"

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by: Guff
Thunderstruck... take a breath there, big guy. Cool down.



OK, when I say "Top 15 Pass Defense", I measured it by the QB Rating that the defense gives up.



Here's a link to the list for your information: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...rue&season=2&year=2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teampass&sort=rat&pos=def&league=nfl&order=true&season=2&year=2004)


You are the only person in the universe who uses QBR-against as your ranking system. It's not even a compiled stat at the NFL statistical database. Why?

Because everyone on earth knows that you can't base the quality of a pass defense solely on the number of interceptions they got, which is what your system does.

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by: Guff
Thunderstruck... take a breath there, big guy. Cool down.



OK, when I say "Top 15 Pass Defense", I measured it by the QB Rating that the defense gives up.



Here's a link to the list for your information: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...rue&season=2&year=2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teampass&sort=rat&pos=def&league=nfl&order=true&season=2&year=2004)


Don't think for one second that I don't read the SoSD forums and know your MO. I don't post over there, but I do read and I know what you're all about. You're not going to turn this forum into an ongoing flame-war.

Guff
03-24-2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by: Thunderstruck
You are the only person in the universe who uses QBR-against as your ranking system. It's not even a compiled stat at the NFL statistical database. Why?

Because everyone on earth knows that you can't base the quality of a pass defense solely on the number of interceptions they got, which is what your system does.

TS, please read this article and tell me what you think: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...ayton_john&id=1897483
(http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1897483
)

And perhaps I will offer some "local" for you to ponder. How would you rate the performance of the Chargers pass defense in 2003? Wasn't it brutal?

The "yards allowed" measure suggests we ranked 20th. The QB rating allowed measurement says the Chargers were the worst pass defense in the league.

Are you telling me that you think the Chargers pass defense of 2003 was "not bad"? It was "ok"? Or would it be more fair to say it stank?

Hey, let's keep this friendly. I'm not interested in an antagonistic discussion.

Guff
03-24-2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by: Thunderstruck
In your world, the Chargers, who gave up over 250 ypg through the air and finished 31st in the NFL in pass defense, are actually a Top-15 pass defense.

I think the prior post should be sufficient to express my thoughts but what the hey, let me just clarify something in the example you gave above.

If you had a defense that was EXCELLENT against the run and AVERAGE against the pass, how do you think opposition offenses would game plan against you?

I'd suggest that they would probably pass more and run less than they otherwise would.

That's EXACTLY what happend with the Chargers. Opposition offenses threw 607 passes (highest number of pass attempts against any defense) and ran 355 times (the lowest number of rush attempts against any defense in the league).

In addition, given that the Chargers were 12-4, it's safe to say that they were leading in many games. What do teams generally do when they're behind? They pass.

So, if a team is passing more against your defense, guess what - - your defense will give up more yards.

That's why anyone who clings to ranks pass on yards allowed is typically missing the picture here.

Are you saying our pass defense got worse in 2004 than it was in 2003? If you go by your ranking theory, you'd have to conclude that is true. That doesn't pass my smell test. "My theory" certainly does.

Thunderstruck
03-24-2005, 06:20 PM
Have you ever stopped for one second to ponder why it is people accuse you of having an MO or an agenda? I'm not the first...or the second...or even the fiftieth. Speaking of trends...

You know exactly what I'm talking about. When 90% of the threads you start turn into flame wars, it is no longer someone else's fault. Take responsibility for yourself.

And by the way...I'm not addressing you in my moderator hat. In my time as a mod, I think I have banned two people. Of all the mods here, I am the least likely to ban you. I would prefer to marginalize you as the obsessive you are. It would be really, really encouraging to see you post some takes on a subject other than the following:

1. Brees is overrated.
2. Guff is persecuted.

I would include the perfunctory "Flutie is God" option in there, but now that Flutie's gone, I don't foresee that as being a problem.

You are a good writer and could be a respected member of this forum, but you can't persist in your public fixation and expect not to have the same, exact problems you've had elsewhere.

lu4449
03-24-2005, 06:37 PM
Exactly, Thunderstruck, well put. I have enjoyed some of Guff's more humorous posts and he does have some writing skill. What he lacks is a thorough understanding of statistics and the impartial scientific use of them. He uses them only to bolster his own biased view of things and conveniently ignores any facts that would contradict said view.

Guff
03-25-2005, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by: Thunderstruck
Have you ever stopped for one second to ponder why it is people accuse you of having an MO or an agenda? I'm not the first...or the second...or even the fiftieth. Speaking of trends...



You know exactly what I'm talking about. When 90% of the threads you start turn into flame wars, it is no longer someone else's fault. Take responsibility for yourself.



And by the way...I'm not addressing you in my moderator hat. In my time as a mod, I think I have banned two people. Of all the mods here, I am the least likely to ban you. I would prefer to marginalize you as the obsessive you are. It would be really, really encouraging to see you post some takes on a subject other than the following:



1. Brees is overrated.

2. Guff is persecuted.



I would include the perfunctory "Flutie is God" option in there, but now that Flutie's gone, I don't foresee that as being a problem.



You are a good writer and could be a respected member of this forum, but you can't persist in your public fixation and expect not to have the same, exact problems you've had elsewhere.

I don't see why you feel it's necessary that every forum member has to talk about every aspect of the Chargers. I like talking about QBs. So what? I'm just expressing a football opinion. And I'm completely onboard in terms of having Brees start this year, which probably runs contrary to a few people. Yes, I have my doubts on his ability but I'm willing to extend an open mind and witness his performance this upcoming year. I do like to share my opinions and challenge other people on why they maintain contrary opinions. I find that to make an interesting discussion provided people don't become too emotionally vested in a player.

As for point 2, this thread is a perfect example. I was just expressing a football opinion. I thought the discussion was very civil where people were exchanging different viewpoints. But then you wanted to persecute me because you think I'm a bad guy based on SDUT and you're starting the embers of a flame war already. And I have noticed that you deleted my post where I questioned you on this exact point.

If you want to make issues based on what I'm doing/posting here, that's fine. Let's have an open discussion on it. If you want to make issues based on my postings on SDUT, then I have a problem with that.

Do I need a non-QB post quota here or something to avoid this type of emnity towards me? This IS the QB forum after all and I will grant you assurances that I won't start any QB threads in your general forum.

Cut me some slack, Jack, and maybe you'll be surprised at how well I can contribute to a forum. If people just stay on point (and I did review your stickied thread here and I personally abide by those types of rules anyway), there shouldn't be any difficulty.

Now, do you want to continue the football discussion or not? I thought I raised some good points regarding how to rate pass defenses and want to see if I swayed you, and if not, what's your contrary opinion?

Let's keep it friendly, TS. If Chargeroo can do it, I'm sure you can as well.

Regards,
Guff

Guff
03-25-2005, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by: lu4449
Exactly, Thunderstruck, well put. I have enjoyed some of Guff's more humorous posts and he does have some writing skill. What he lacks is a thorough understanding of statistics and the impartial scientific use of them. He uses them only to bolster his own biased view of things and conveniently ignores any facts that would contradict said view.

I will always entertain a contrary statistical conclusion (provided it withstands my scrutiny). A pity no one else really wants to engage me in that area. I am a numbers guy and I did enjoy exchanges I had with HOSSman on SDUT a couple of years ago.

If my use of statistics is flawed, I welcome someone else to champion a contrary opinion. For example, TS dismissed the manner in which I ranked pass defenses and I thought I presented some excellent counterpoints. Think outside the box and don't accept "conventional wisdom" unquestioningly. I would be less of a maverick if people would do that.

Chargeroo
03-25-2005, 10:50 AM
Guffy, it's my intention to let you join in the fun. I'm willing and able to forget about the past at U-T and begin anew. I think it's pretty clear what caused all the animosity over there and it's my hope that you'll avoid that here. However, I want to be above board and tell you that you do bring a reputation with you and your leash is shorter than most. Fair is fair though and I think we should let your posts in this forum decide how you're treated. I hope you'll settle down and just enjoy the forum with some good debate among fellow Bolt fans. I know you have a fine sense of humor and I enjoy that. My question is, will you enjoy a forum without always arguing about anything and everything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On to football;

As for our pass defense, or for that matter our offense. I'm not a big believer in using those yardage numbers as an indicator of how good or bad a team or a facet of a team is. I think TD's allowed and scored are the real indicators of where a team ranks. Let's just look at the pass defense issue. If a team had a real good run defense or a high scoring offense the teams playing them will almost certainly pass for a lot of yards on them because they can't run and as soon as they fall behind they'll pass, pass, pass. The point of all of that passing will be to try to score TD's. If they can't score those TD's then I don't care if they had a mile of yards, the defense did what they are asked to do - not allow a lot of points.

It's been a while ago so I can't recite numbers but I recall last year when we played the Chiefs for the first time they had passed for about 500 yards in the two previous games but only passed for about half that much on the Chargers. The week after playing us they had another big day (I think against the Broncos). My point here is even if you look at yardage, the Bolts were getting better at defending the pass as the late year stats would indicate. - That's a good trend. Still, I'm interested more in keeping the opponents out of the end zone - our pass defense on TD's allowed was #11 - not too bad but plenty of room for improvement.

spysnipedis
03-25-2005, 12:54 PM
The Chargers Pass defense wasn't really a 31st in the NFL type team. When you have a strong run defense that just stops the runs, what do you think teams do? Pass. They will pass all the time.

Just take a look
Week 3 vs. Broncos J. Plummer Atts 25/36 Yards 294 yards Rushing yards 33 yards
Week 4 vs. Titans B. Volek Atts 39/58 Yards 278 yards Rushing Yards72 yards
Week 5 vs. Jaguars B. Leftwich Atts 36/54 Yards 357 yards Rushing Yards 80 yards
Week 7 vs. Panthers J. Delhomme Atts 17/36 Yards 155 yards Rushing Yards 116 yards
Week 8 vs. Raiders K. Collins Atts 24/39 Yards 263 yards Rushing Yards 22 yards
Week 9 vs. Raiders K. Collins Atts 18/30 Yards 227 yards Rushing Yards 53 yards
Week 12 vs. Chiefs T. Green Atts 21/34 Yards 208 yards Rushing Yards 110 yards
Week 13 vs. Broncos J. Plummer Atts 16/40 Yards 278 yards Rushing Yards 74 yards
Week 14 vs. Buccaneers B. Griese Atts36/50 Yards 392 yards Rushing Yards 63 yards
Week 16 vs. Colts P. Manning Atts 27/44 Yards 383 yards Rushing Yards 104 yards
Week 17 vs. Cheifs T. Green Atts 33/53 Yards 373 yards Rushing Yards 70 yards

Just to show how much the other teams passed.

Guff
03-25-2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by: Chargeroo
Guffy, it's my intention to let you join in the fun. I'm willing and able to forget about the past at U-T and begin anew. I think it's pretty clear what caused all the animosity over there and it's my hope that you'll avoid that here. However, I want to be above board and tell you that you do bring a reputation with you and your leash is shorter than most. Fair is fair though and I think we should let your posts in this forum decide how you're treated. I hope you'll settle down and just enjoy the forum with some good debate among fellow Bolt fans. I know you have a fine sense of humor and I enjoy that. My question is, will you enjoy a forum without always arguing about anything and everything?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



On to football;



As for our pass defense, or for that matter our offense. I'm not a big believer in using those yardage numbers as an indicator of how good or bad a team or a facet of a team is. I think TD's allowed and scored are the real indicators of where a team ranks. Let's just look at the pass defense issue. If a team had a real good run defense or a high scoring offense the teams playing them will almost certainly pass for a lot of yards on them because they can't run and as soon as they fall behind they'll pass, pass, pass. The point of all of that passing will be to try to score TD's. If they can't score those TD's then I don't care if they had a mile of yards, the defense did what they are asked to do - not allow a lot of points.



It's been a while ago so I can't recite numbers but I recall last year when we played the Chiefs for the first time they had passed for about 500 yards in the two previous games but only passed for about half that much on the Chargers. The week after playing us they had another big day (I think against the Broncos). My point here is even if you look at yardage, the Bolts were getting better at defending the pass as the late year stats would indicate. - That's a good trend. Still, I'm interested more in keeping the opponents out of the end zone - our pass defense on TD's allowed was #11 - not too bad but plenty of room for improvement.

Oh, I do expect more rigourous monitoring of my posts but I hope I'm allowed the same standard of leeway that Average Joe User gets. That's all I ask.

As for the football points, yes I agree.

The Patriots defense of...uhhh 2001 ranked quite poorly in terms of yards given up but they didn't give up many points. If you keep 'em out of the endzone, create turnovers etc., then you probably have a solid D.

I think it's a good article that I linked into here (mostly because NFL coaches endorse what I was saying!)

lu4449
03-25-2005, 04:11 PM
Ok, Guff. I am not real stat person, so I can't debate stats with you. However, I have looked over a site that was very much statistical in nature, and seemed to me to be quite unbiased. It is football outsiders.com - go check it out if you haven't come across it yet.

I was interested in their analysis of QB play - they have exhaustive statistics on the whole 2004 season.
As I recall, they ranked DB's performance in 2004 as either the 5th or 7th best in the entire league, depending on which of their ranking systems are used. That seemed about right to me. His passer rating had him at 3rd I think, and that seemed a little high to me.

Anyway, thought you might like to see some professional stat guys' analysis of the 2004 season.

I do think your stats are skewed - both by small sample size and by "picking and choosing" which games/teams you want to include and leaving out those games/teams that would seem to contradict your assertion.

SuperChargersGo
03-26-2005, 09:26 PM
The last time Flutie walked into the Chargers' locker room for a game, and I have a picture of it, haha.

http://img238.exs.cx/img238/4314/dscn63291qu.th.jpg