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View Full Version : What happens when you knock down the first domino?


ChargerCohen
08-10-2006, 03:01 PM
With Kansas City's offensive line already forced to find replacements at both OT spots with the retirements of John Welbourn and Willie Roaf, we're hearing Pro Bowl OG Brian Waters' lingering foot problems have been a cause for concern in Chiefs camp.

Also consider that Will Shields was going to retire until Roaf watched him stay. I know KC lost 2 of their o-line starters, but I'm rooting for 4. Or a clean sweep.

TJ21
08-10-2006, 03:10 PM
How quickly they fall. It's like watching an entire offense disappear. That line was the heart and soul of that team. If they weren't rivals I might actually feel sorry for them.

LA Chargers '07
08-10-2006, 03:14 PM
They still may be a threat. Dont get too relaxed just yet. ALOT of NFL insiders are picking the chiefs to win it. AFC and some even the SB. I feel if Roaf doesnt come out of retirement (there is talk that he is just 'retired' so he can skip camp) then i feel Green will be exposed this year. He's not that great a QB in my opinion he just had a lot of time last year to get that ball out there.

In any case the Chiefs are an old team without much money. This may be there year to do it all or fall into a decline.

LTfan4life
08-10-2006, 06:11 PM
Not good for my Trent Green QB'ed fantasy team :( :D



I knew this was coming, but I didn't expect it to start before the season hit. This may be the true test for LJ and company, and we'll see if it was his star O-Line, or his true talent.

Thunderstruck
08-10-2006, 06:46 PM
They still may be a threat. Dont get too relaxed just yet. ALOT of NFL insiders are picking the chiefs to win it. AFC and some even the SB. I feel if Roaf doesnt come out of retirement (there is talk that he is just 'retired' so he can skip camp) then i feel Green will be exposed this year. He's not that great a QB in my opinion he just had a lot of time last year to get that ball out there.

In any case the Chiefs are an old team without much money. This may be there year to do it all or fall into a decline.

A LOT of NFL insiders underestimate the importance of an offensive line. It almost can't be overstated how important guys like Roaf were to KC's success on offense.

They're done, IMO. Their defense can't improve enough to overcome the dropoff in offense. 8-8 will be a good season for them.

Shamrock
08-10-2006, 07:26 PM
KC is already hurting at OT, but what happens if they suffer an injury or two?

This Indy/STL game shows that the depth in OL isn't very good - league wide. Indy's second teamers are getting abused by the Rams.

Another note. The first offensive play of the game, a Rams DL abused Colts center Jeff Saturday with a bull rush. Jamal Williams and the Steelers DL did the same to him last year. Saturday is one of the most overrated OL in the NFL.

TJ21
08-10-2006, 08:08 PM
KC is already hurting at OT, but what happens if they suffer an injury or two?

This Indy/STL game shows that the depth in OL isn't very good - league wide. Indy's second teamers are getting abused by the Rams.

Another note. The first offensive play of the game, a Rams DL abused Colts center Jeff Saturday with a bull rush. Jamal Williams and the Steelers DL did the same to him last year. Saturday is one of the most overrated OL in the NFL.

Well, he touches the ball only 1 second before Peyton Manning... so he must be magic! :eek: :rolleyes:

:D

Ikeman83
08-10-2006, 08:19 PM
I'm DVRing the Colts game so I could go to TC and the driving range, but there is no truer statement than this. Without their starting O-line, KC won't win 7 games next season.

Shamrock
08-10-2006, 08:22 PM
Well, he touches the ball only 1 second before Peyton Manning... so he must be magic! :eek: :rolleyes:

:D
Jeff Saturday was the AFC Pro Bowl starting center (http://www.nfl.com/probowl/afc_roster) this past year, with PITT Hastings as the backup.

Mark it down. Saturday doesn't sniff the Pro Bowl this year. Players saw him get manhandled vs. SD and PITT last year.

The overwhelming preseason favorite for AFC PB center would have been Cleveland's LeCharles Bentley. But, with him injured a spot will open. If Hardwick truly is improved, look for the Chargers center to make a strong push this season for Pro Bowl recognition.

TJ21
08-10-2006, 08:36 PM
Jeff Saturday was the AFC Pro Bowl starting center (http://www.nfl.com/probowl/afc_roster) this past year, with PITT Hastings as the backup.

Mark it down. Saturday doesn't sniff the Pro Bowl this year. Players saw him get manhandled vs. SD and PITT last year.

The overwhelming preseason favorite for AFC PB center would have been Cleveland's LeCharles Bentley. But, with him injured a spot will open. If Hardwick truly is improved, look for the Chargers center to make a strong push this season for Pro Bowl recognition.

Hardwick was third alternate last year... so he does have a very strong chance. :Beer:

ltomlinson16
08-10-2006, 08:38 PM
lets not get too ahead of ourselves, although its true that 1 OL position has to be replaced its not a fact that any others will. Roaf could come back, its possible and shields has a few weeks to heal. As for time in the pocket, green didnt exactly have all the time in the world last year- he was sacked about 30 times as well as took off a few times so that number could be alittle higher.

Theres a reason why alot of analysts are pickin the chiefs to win and its not because of their passing attack. Its because of free agent acquisitions on defense and larry johnson. If you think that willie roaf alone is going to knock LJ's rushing average down a few yards per carry then your wrong. Turley is quite a servicable backup and hes got experience.

As for the domino's falling, indeed they are. Maybe not this year but in a few years that O-lien is gone, no green gonzalez any DB. they're an old team and they dont have youth in any of the right spots.

Shamrock
08-10-2006, 08:47 PM
Hardwick was third alternate last year... so he does have a very strong chance. :Beer:

I think he does have a chance, but he has to show it on the field. IMO, he's already better than Saturday (the most overrated AFC PB starter).

Shamrock
08-10-2006, 08:53 PM
Turley is quite a servicable backup and hes got experience.
Time will tell, but right now Turley is a HUGE question mark.

The day he was signed by KC, I heard Herm Edwards interviewed on Sirius, and the Chiefs coach said Turley's weight was in the mid-260's. That means Turley will have had to gain 25-40 lbs just to be on the 'light' side of the average NFL OT's weight.

How's his strength? How's his back? He sat out a whole year because of the back injury.

Can his weight, strength, stamina, and back hold up for the grind of 16 NFL games?

Right now, Turley's signing looks like a reach by a team desperate for OT help.

Ikeman83
08-10-2006, 08:55 PM
lets not get too ahead of ourselves, although its true that 1 OL position has to be replaced its not a fact that any others will. Roaf could come back, its possible and shields has a few weeks to heal. As for time in the pocket, green didnt exactly have all the time in the world last year- he was sacked about 30 times as well as took off a few times so that number could be alittle higher.

Theres a reason why alot of analysts are pickin the chiefs to win and its not because of their passing attack. Its because of free agent acquisitions on defense and larry johnson. If you think that willie roaf alone is going to knock LJ's rushing average down a few yards per carry then your wrong. Turley is quite a servicable backup and hes got experience.

As for the domino's falling, indeed they are. Maybe not this year but in a few years that O-lien is gone, no green gonzalez any DB. they're an old team and they dont have youth in any of the right spots.

The thing is that it's not just Roaf. They lost Roaf, they lost Welbourn, they might be losing Waters and Will Shields wanted to retire this last season.

When 2 of your starting linemen from last season retire, one of your guards had to be talked into not retiring, one of your guards has a ing injury, while your receivers, TE, and QB are all in their 10th year, and you're learning a new system under a new offensive coordinator, the season starts to look a little bleak for your offense. But hey, LJ is still going to get 3200 yds, right?

Farmer808
08-10-2006, 09:17 PM
We have a much better shot at a playoff berth now

Ikeman83
08-10-2006, 09:24 PM
We have a much better shot at a playoff berth now

I'd say that anytimne you can better your chances of getting two in Division wins, you're helping yourself out alot.

Goldbrick
08-10-2006, 10:23 PM
Kansas City still has a very good offensive line, even without Roaf and Welbourn.

Roaf is one of the all-time great left tackles, but Turley has been to the pro bowl, also (although, I think he went to the pro bowl as a right tackle). Turley is close to his intended playing weight of 290 lbs., so the news about him only weighing 260 is false. There will be a drop off at that position, but not as much as almost everyone in this thread is predicting.

Either Kevin Sampson or Jordan Black will probably be the starting right tackle on opening day. Welbourn was out of position at tackle. His natural position is guard. Sampson or Black should be an upgrade at right tackle.

Will Shields, Brian Waters, and Casey Wiegmann still comprise the best interior line in the league. Waters is dinged up right now, but he should be ready to go on opening day.

Chris Bober can play any position on the offensive line. Jordan Black can play both tackle positions and both guard positions. Kevin Sampson and Will Svitek can play either tackle position. Kansas City not only has good starters on the offensive line, but they also have depth.

Kansas City may not have the #1 offensive line this year, but it will still be top 5. Of course, if the speculation about Roaf coming back after training camp is true (I think it is probably wishful thinking), that line will again be the best.

However, if it helps you sleep at night, and gives you any hope of finishing higher than third in the division, you can keep lying to yourself by saying that KC is done.

Thunderstruck
08-10-2006, 10:39 PM
However, if it helps you sleep at night, and gives you any hope of finishing higher than third in the division, you can keep lying to yourself by saying that KC is done.

Wow. You sure are confident for a team that is 1-3 against us the last two seasons (even when you had your all-pro o-line) and has a new head coach, new offensive coordinator, and just lost a hall-of-fame left-tackle and pro-bowl fullback.

But I forgot, Herm Edwards is going to lead y'all to the promised land. :rolleyes:

It's funny...when Marty came to SD, Chiefs fans were quick-as-can-be to point out how his conservative approach was bad and didn't work to win championships. Well guess what? You just replaced Vermiel with one of maybe four coaches in the NFL who are more conservative than Marty was when he was your coach.

Ikeman83
08-10-2006, 10:39 PM
Kansas City still has a very good offensive line, even without Roaf and Welbourn.

Roaf is one of the all-time great left tackles, but Turley has been to the pro bowl, also (although, I think he went to the pro bowl as a right tackle). Turley is close to his intended playing weight of 290 lbs., so the news about him only weighing 260 is false. There will be a drop off at that position, but not as much as almost everyone in this thread is predicting.

Either Kevin Sampson or Jordan Black will probably be the starting right tackle on opening day. Welbourn was out of position at tackle. His natural position is guard. Sampson or Black should be an upgrade at right tackle.

Will Shields, Brian Waters, and Casey Wiegmann still comprise the best interior line in the league. Waters is dinged up right now, but he should be ready to go on opening day.

Chris Bober can play any position on the offensive line. Jordan Black can play both tackle positions and both guard positions. Kevin Sampson and Will Svitek can play either tackle position. Kansas City not only has good starters on the offensive line, but they also have depth.

Kansas City may not have the #1 offensive line this year, but it will still be top 5. Of course, if the speculation about Roaf coming back after training camp is true (I think it is probably wishful thinking), that line will again be the best.

However, if it helps you sleep at night, and gives you any hope of finishing higher than third in the division, you can keep lying to yourself by saying that KC is done.

When two of your 5 pro-bowl linemen retire, and one of them is injured, and one of them wanted to retire this season, you're going to see a decline in production. Even if you plug in a few decent players, you aren't going to see the kind of complete tion that has been a mainstay of the KC offensive front.

Shamrock
08-10-2006, 10:40 PM
Kansas City blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Squaw spam.

Chargeroo
08-10-2006, 11:26 PM
Kansas City still has a very good offensive line, even without Roaf and Welbourn.

Roaf is one of the all-time great left tackles, but Turley has been to the pro bowl, also (although, I think he went to the pro bowl as a right tackle). Turley is close to his intended playing weight of 290 lbs., so the news about him only weighing 260 is false. There will be a drop off at that position, but not as much as almost everyone in this thread is predicting.

Either Kevin Sampson or Jordan Black will probably be the starting right tackle on opening day. Welbourn was out of position at tackle. His natural position is guard. Sampson or Black should be an upgrade at right tackle.

Will Shields, Brian Waters, and Casey Wiegmann still comprise the best interior line in the league. Waters is dinged up right now, but he should be ready to go on opening day.

Chris Bober can play any position on the offensive line. Jordan Black can play both tackle positions and both guard positions. Kevin Sampson and Will Svitek can play either tackle position. Kansas City not only has good starters on the offensive line, but they also have depth.

Kansas City may not have the #1 offensive line this year, but it will still be top 5. Of course, if the speculation about Roaf coming back after training camp is true (I think it is probably wishful thinking), that line will again be the best.

However, if it helps you sleep at night, and gives you any hope of finishing higher than third in the division, you can keep lying to yourself by saying that KC is done. You're replacing both starting OT's in the same year and you expect to be a top five o-line. You're the one that's dreaming. Jordon Black is a very mediocre OT. Turley has weight and health concerns. That o-line will decline a lot, not a little. I never thought the Chiefs were a threat to finish ahead of us before they lost Roaf. I'm not sure you guys will finish ahead of the raiders without Roaf. No matter how you cut it, the Chiefs are old and on the way down.

However, if it helps you sleep at night, and gives you any hope of finishing higher than third in the division, you can keep lying to yourself by saying that KC still has a great o-line. :)

Goldbrick
08-11-2006, 12:19 AM
Sorry that I ruffled some feathers. I was just trying to get some of you to take off your rose colored glasses. Reading this thread, it seemed like many believed that loosing Roaf and Welbourn would make Kansas City’s line worse than Houston’s. This is not the case. There will be a drop-off, but not as much as many of you are predicting.

Ike, the players are only part of the reason why strong offensive line play has been a mainstay in KC for many years. Coaching and schemes have a lot to do with it also. It seems that offensive lineman are a staple crop in the Midwest (they grow big and mean out there).

‘Roo, the last I heard, Turley’s weight was around 285. He says he wants to play at about 290. I think he will get there before the season starts. His back is somewhat of a concern, but it seems to be doing fine so far. At this point, I would agree that Jordan Black is average, but so was Welbourn. Black is young and has time to improve. Last year, Black was moved from back and forth between RT and LT. That’s hard for most seasoned veterans, let alone a third-year player. I personally think that Sampson will be the starting right tackle.

The AFC West is going to be a 3-way brawl, and I am eager for the fray.

Thunderstruck21
08-11-2006, 12:21 AM
besides center, the tackle positions are the most important part of the offensive line, losing both mean:

trent green has less time to throw
trent greens blindside is going to be open more often
the pocket will collapse faster and more often

NFL "experts" get caught up on larry johnsons stats but they forget that games are won and lost on the line, and with kc's o-line crumbling, so will the rest of the team.

Goldbrick
08-11-2006, 12:40 AM
besides center, the tackle positions are the most important part of the offensive line, losing both mean:

trent green has less time to throw
trent greens blindside is going to be open more often
the pocket will collapse faster and more often

NFL "experts" get caught up on larry johnsons stats but they forget that games are won and lost on the line, and with kc's o-line crumbling, so will the rest of the team.

You're assuming that they are just going to throw some warm bodies out on the field to play tackle. KC has had continuity on the offensive line for several years. They have had time to groom replacements along the line.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Ikeman83
08-11-2006, 01:10 AM
They might not just be "warm bodies", but they certainly won't have the talent, experience, or chemistry that the Roaf, Shields, Weigman, Waters, Welbourne line did.

Thunderstruck
08-11-2006, 01:18 AM
You're assuming that they are just going to throw some warm bodies out on the field to play tackle. KC has had continuity on the offensive line for several years. They have had time to groom replacements along the line.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Your offensive line has been the strength of your team. It wasn't just adequate...it was THE strength of your team.

If your offensive line becomes merely good or average, then what's the strength of your team?

Exactly. You don't have one--at least not one that can carry you like your o-line once did.

Goldbrick
08-11-2006, 02:02 AM
Your offensive line has been the strength of your team. It wasn't just adequate...it was THE strength of your team.

If your offensive line becomes merely good or average, then what's the strength of your team?

Exactly. You don't have one--at least not one that can carry you like your o-line once did.

You're right, the offensive line has been the strength of the team. The line is still the strength of the team. Players have come and gone in the past, but it seems that KC always has a great line.

I have conceded that there will be a drop-off, but the KC line will not be "merely good or average." KC will be a more balanced team this year. The marginal drop-off in production on the offensive line will be neutralized by improvements elsewhere.

We've all stated our position and I think that is all that can be accomplished in this argument (kinda like the Gonzalez/Gates argument, there is no end in sight). I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. Let's just see what happens starting in Pittsburgh on September 7.

Ikeman83
08-11-2006, 03:34 AM
I don't think there's much of a stretch to saying that KC subtracted a lot more on offense, through retirements, players walking, and players aging, than they've added on defense through Ty Law.

Chargeroo
08-11-2006, 09:00 AM
When the Chiefs signed Roaf in 2002 they became the best line in the league. Before that it was simply one of several fairly good lines. He may still come back. He wouldn't be the first older player to announce retirement and change his mind toward the end of TC, so I'm not counting the Chiefs out just yet. But the Chiefs with two new OT's will not be the same team. Believe me, the collective sigh of relief from the Right Defensive Ends in the AFCW was heard in SD, Oak., and Denver. I think I saw Igor and Foley licking there chops. :D

A big part of the fall off of the Chargers last season was the loss of our own LOT, Roman Oben. Charger fans are well aware of how losing your starting LOT can change the dynamics of the o-line. Chief fans will find out soon.

Goldbrick
08-11-2006, 09:06 AM
Ty Law isn't the only move KC made in the off season.

For the sake of argument, let's assume you are right and say KC took a step back at 3 positions: LT, RT and FB.

They improved at several positions. At running back, Holmes was good, but LJ is better. Bennett adds good depth. At defensive tackle, KC brought in several free agents that will improve the rotation. Ty Law is a vast improvement over Warfield and McCleon. KC cut some dead weight in safety Jerome Woods (expect Bartee to be gone also). They also got 2 young safties that are tearing it up in camp. Many believe that one or both will be starting sometime this season. They also add depth at the position.

By my count, that is already 4 positions where they have improved vs. 3 positions where the may have taken a step back. These are just some of the improvements that KC made. There are more.

By implying that Ty Law is the only addition KC made you are either uninformed or intentially omitting information in an attempt to strengthen your position. Neither option adds to the discourse.

Goldbrick
08-11-2006, 09:19 AM
When the Chiefs signed Roaf in 2002 they became the best line in the league. Before that it was simply one of several fairly good lines. He may still come back. He wouldn't be the first older player to announce retirement and change his mind toward the end of TC, so I'm not counting the Chiefs out just yet. But the Chiefs with two new OT's will not be the same team. Believe me, the collective sigh of relief from the Right Defensive Ends in the AFCW was heard in SD, Oak., and Denver. I think I saw Igor and Foley licking there chops. :D

A big part of the fall off of the Chargers last season was the loss of our own LOT, Roman Oben. Charger fans are well aware of how losing your starting LOT can change the dynamics of the o-line. Chief fans will find out soon.

I am hoping that KC will not be the same team, at least not on defense. Chiefs fans already know what it is like to lose the starting LOT. In fact, they know what it is like to lose one of the all time great LOT's. However, in the games that LJ started when Roaf was out, he averaged 150 yards per game. Granted, it wasn't against stellar defenses, but to average 150 per game versus any defense in the NFL with out your all pro LT is pretty impressive.

I think Roaf is done. Some KC fans are holding out hope that he will come back, but that is just wishful thinking. They need to accept it and move on.

56lightsout56
08-11-2006, 10:59 AM
Time will tell, but right now Turley is a HUGE question mark.

The day he was signed by KC, I heard Herm Edwards interviewed on Sirius, and the Chiefs coach said Turley's weight was in the mid-260's. That means Turley will have had to gain 25-40 lbs just to be on the 'light' side of the average NFL OT's weight.

How's his strength? How's his back? He sat out a whole year because of the back injury.

Can his weight, strength, stamina, and back hold up for the grind of 16 NFL games?

Right now, Turley's signing looks like a reach by a team desperate for OT help.


Regardless of heart, Igor would overwhelm Turley just on strength alone and Castillo would run rings around him. It's not something that the Chiefs
are real excited about I am sure. O lineman getting hurt in the preseason carries over all year long due to the poundng.

Larry Johnson is good, but he's a straight ahead back. If the O line cant get the push up front, he's not going far. They have a great TE, poor receivers and Green has happy feet. if the offensive production falls off, that Defense cant carry them.

Chargeroo
08-11-2006, 12:47 PM
For about 5 years now, we have Chief fans stop by to tell us the wonderful upgrades they've made to the defense. However, it really hasn't improved yet. A quick look at last seasons stats shows the Chiefs only had one team behind them in passing defense. We have often criticized our own pass defense and even ours is above the Chiefs! I'm going to believe your defense is better when I see it. (Same for our own pass defense). I do have a high opinion of Johnson and I think he'll still be a great weapon for you but people will key on him more since your passing attack won't be as much of a threat due to a heavier pass rush.

If I am correct that your new OT's aren't great pass blockers, guess who'll be kept in to help them? I'll bet you guessed it - Gonzo! He'll be doing more blocking and less catching with these guys at OT, which is not good for your receiving corps. Perhaps because you're a big fan you know more about them than I do. In fact, that's very possible. However, it's also possible that some of you are saying is more along the lines of hope than it is fact. Won't be long now before we both know. Sure is nice to have the return of the NFL season!