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  #191  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
Meachem and Royal cost us $15M this year and depending on Meachem's contract (bonus) will cost us $14M next year.

The only money we save is on the back end. Meach and Royal are signed for 4 and 3 years respectively. VJ signed for 5. Assuming we would have signed VJ for the same contract but structured it with bonus money we would take about a $5.5M hit if we cut VJ in year 4. If we stick with him then VJ's contract would cost us considerably more. However at that point it would mean he is still producing and worth the money otherwise he would get released.

There is no way to have known that Meach and Royal would bust. But given the situation we would have been way better off signing VJ, even for the $55M contract.
Interesting point...to be consistent, there is no way to know what VJ would do here with our team as is...and to be fair, there is still time for Meachem and Royal to work out here.

According to spotrac.com, Meachem for the next 4 years will get 1500000, 5000000, 5000000, 6500000 and Royal for the next three years will get 1500000, 3000000, 4500000...thats 27 million...
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  #192  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
Meachem and Royal cost us $15M this year and depending on Meachem's contract (bonus) will cost us $14M next year.

The only money we save is on the back end. Meach and Royal are signed for 4 and 3 years respectively. VJ signed for 5. Assuming we would have signed VJ for the same contract but structured it with bonus money we would take about a $5.5M hit if we cut VJ in year 4. If we stick with him then VJ's contract would cost us considerably more. However at that point it would mean he is still producing and worth the money otherwise he would get released.

There is no way to have known that Meach and Royal would bust. But given the situation we would have been way better off signing VJ, even for the $55M contract.
HA HA. Stay after em sj !!!
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  #193  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:42 AM
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Interesting point...to be consistent, there is no way to know what VJ would do here with our team as is...and to be fair, there is still time for Meachem and Royal to work out here.

According to spotrac.com, Meachem for the next 4 years will get 1500000, 5000000, 5000000, 6500000 and Royal for the next three years will get 1500000, 3000000, 4500000...thats 27 million...
The point that sj, with class, mostly avoided is that right now that 27 million is lipstick on a pig. 27 million for trash, in other words. Wasted money. Missed opportunities. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Now we all hope they turn it around next year, but they were suppose to be the answer NOW. Not so much. Nope. Not so much at all.
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  #194  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
Meachem and Royal cost us $15M this year and depending on Meachem's contract (bonus) will cost us $14M next year.

The only money we save is on the back end. Meach and Royal are signed for 4 and 3 years respectively. VJ signed for 5. Assuming we would have signed VJ for the same contract but structured it with bonus money we would take about a $5.5M hit if we cut VJ in year 4. If we stick with him then VJ's contract would cost us considerably more. However at that point it would mean he is still producing and worth the money otherwise he would get released.

There is no way to have known that Meach and Royal would bust. But given the situation we would have been way better off signing VJ, even for the $55M contract.
So there are some discrepancies in the numbers here...the cap hit for Meachem this year was 3375000 and for Royal was 3000000, and that includes the signing bonuses...spotrac does say that Meachem is guaranteed 14 million and Royal is guaranteed 6 million...cap hit this year for VJ is 13 million and he is guaranteed 26 million...pretty simple to understand...

SJ...you mind clarifying what you were getting at with the contract talk...structuring is over my head...but it's easy to see the difference in salaries on a yearly basis...and that's what I have been focusing on...

I believe the first statement is wrong...mind citing a source...and also the assumption about bonuses and structuring seems a bit fluffy...what would be the details of that contract, and how would you know? Sorry I was short initialy...didn't have the time to think about your post...
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  #195  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Chargerfreak View Post
The point that sj, with class, mostly avoided is that right now that 27 million is lipstick on a pig. 27 million for trash, in other words. Wasted money. Missed opportunities. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Now we all hope they turn it around next year, but they were suppose to be the answer NOW. Not so much. Nope. Not so much at all.
Not sure if you are even reading these posts...SJs numbers and mine are way off...so something is wrong there...if my numbers are right, it is 27 million for seven years divided between two players...we haven't even gotten a years worth of play from either of them yet...production could still very well level out...

Besides, if you got the equivalent of a VJ out of those two, you would likely be seeing Norv for another year!
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  #196  
Old 11-30-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyVP27 View Post
Not sure if you are even reading these posts...SJs numbers and mine are way off...so something is wrong there...if my numbers are right, it is 27 million for seven years divided between two players...we haven't even gotten a years worth of play from either of them yet...production could still very well level out...

Besides, if you got the equivalent of a VJ out of those two, you would likely be seeing Norv for another year!
Our numbers are way off because you do not understand NFL contracts.
The $15M I referred to is the cash the Chargers paid Meach and Royal. Most of that money is bonus money which for the cap will be spread out over the life of the contract.

Next year the cash outlay will depend on how the Chargers pay out the rest of Meach/Royal bonus money also known as guaranteed money. It figures to be around $14M if they pay off the rest off.

The salary numbers for this year are low because of all the bonus money we paid. Do you understand?

So technically speaking the Chargers are paying more for Meach/Royal than they would have for VJ in the first 2 years.

The problem arrises after this. VJ's contract is for 5 years. Meach 4. Royal 3. So you cannot compare the contracts apples to apples.

Bottom line like I've been saying VJ is not here because we did not want him over 5 years. Cost was a factor but not the main factor since clearly over 3 years we will spend more for Meach/Royal than VJ. After that all bets are off.

If we had signed VJ to a big 5 year contract we most likely would have released him after year 3. That's because for sure we would have back loaded the contract with a huge salary that would not have been guaranteed. In return we would have taken a cap hit of perhaps $5 or $6M to release him.

Now in three years time the cap is likely to increase and I'd bet that $5/6M won't look like such a big deal compared to the hit we're taking on the field for lack of a true #1 WR and what it will now take to get one either through the draft or yuc another FA aquisition.

Of course that's getting ahead of ourselves so we won't know for a while.
But my opinion we should have paid VJ.
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  #197  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
Our numbers are way off because you do not understand NFL contracts.
The $15M I referred to is the cash the Chargers paid Meach and Royal. Most of that money is bonus money which for the cap will be spread out over the life of the contract.

Next year the cash outlay will depend on how the Chargers pay out the rest of Meach/Royal bonus money also known as guaranteed money. It figures to be around $14M if they pay off the rest off.

The salary numbers for this year are low because of all the bonus money we paid. Do you understand?

So technically speaking the Chargers are paying more for Meach/Royal than they would have for VJ in the first 2 years.

The problem arrises after this. VJ's contract is for 5 years. Meach 4. Royal 3. So you cannot compare the contracts apples to apples.

Bottom line like I've been saying VJ is not here because we did not want him over 5 years. Cost was a factor but not the main factor since clearly over 3 years we will spend more for Meach/Royal than VJ. After that all bets are off.

If we had signed VJ to a big 5 year contract we most likely would have released him after year 3. That's because for sure we would have back loaded the contract with a huge salary that would not have been guaranteed. In return we would have taken a cap hit of perhaps $5 or $6M to release him.

Now in three years time the cap is likely to increase and I'd bet that $5/6M won't look like such a big deal compared to the hit we're taking on the field for lack of a true #1 WR and what it will now take to get one either through the draft or yuc another FA aquisition.

Of course that's getting ahead of ourselves so we won't know for a while.
But my opinion we should have paid VJ.
I actually agree with your conclusion, but you have a lot of ifs and contradictions for a list of "facts".
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  #198  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:26 PM
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Meachem:
Contract:4 yr(s) / $25,900,000
Signing Bonus $7,500,000
Average Salary $6,475,000
End Year:2015
Free Agent:2016 / Unrestricted


Base Salary
S. Bonus
Misc. Bonus
Cap Hit
2012
1,500,000
1,875,000
-
3,375,000
2013
5,000,000
1,875,000
-
6,875,000
2014
5,000,000
1,875,000
-
6,875,000
2015
6,500,000
1,875,000
-
8,375,000
2016
UFA
$14 million guaranteed (2012-13 salaries, signing bonus)

Royal:
Contract:3 yr(s) / $13,500,000
Signing Bonus $4,500,000
Average Salary $4,500,000
End Year:2014
Free Agent:2015 / Unrestricted
Base Salary
S. Bonus
Misc. Bonus
Cap Hit
2012
1,500,000
1,500,000
-
3,000,000
2013
3,000,000
1,500,000
-
4,500,000
2014
4,500,000
1,500,000
-
6,000,000
2015
$6 million guaranteed

VJ:
Contract:5 yr(s) / $55,555,555
Signing Bonus -
Average Salary $11,111,111
End Year:2016
Free Agent:2017 / Unrestricted
Base Salary
S. Bonus
Misc. Bonus
Cap Hit
2012
11,000,000
-
2,000,000
13,000,000
2013
13,000,000
-
-
13,000,000
2014
10,000,000
-
-
10,000,000
2015
9,770,000
-
-
9,770,000
2016
9,770,000
-
-
9,770,000
2017
UFA
2012 Roster Bonus: $2 million
$26 million guaranteed

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Last edited by AnthonyVP27; 11-30-2012 at 01:33 PM..
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  #199  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by charger1_sj View Post
Our numbers are way off because you do not understand NFL contracts.


I deffinately don't understand the intricacies of NFL contracts, but the posted numbers are pretty easy to understand...

The $15M I referred to is the cash the Chargers paid Meach and Royal. Most of that money is bonus money which for the cap will be spread out over the life of the contract.

Got it now...since your including all the signing bonuses in the 15 for this year, next season we would only be on the hook for 5 mil for Meachem and nothing for Royal as his signing bonuses plus this years salary reaches his contracts guaranteed threshold...

Next year the cash outlay will depend on how the Chargers pay out the rest of Meach/Royal bonus money also known as guaranteed money. It figures to be around $14M if they pay off the rest off.

This is wrong...guaranteed money depends on nothing...it is guaranteed...see the reply above...

The salary numbers for this year are low because of all the bonus money we paid. Do you understand?

Not what I'm struggling with my man...

So technically speaking the Chargers are paying more for Meach/Royal than they would have for VJ in the first 2 years.

For Meach/Royal the Chargers are potentially paying 17500000...for VJ the Bucs are paying 26000000

The problem arrises after this. VJ's contract is for 5 years. Meach 4. Royal 3. So you cannot compare the contracts apples to apples.

Disagree...all contracts are unique, even ones with identical time frames...but you can compare guarantees and yearly salaries...

Bottom line like I've been saying VJ is not here because we did not want him over 5 years. Cost was a factor but not the main factor since clearly over 3 years we will spend more for Meach/Royal than VJ. After that all bets are off.

Over three years the cap hit comes to 17125000 for Meachem and 13500000 for Royal...for VJ it is 36000000...The Chargers are paying 5375000 less for Meachem and Royal...
If we had signed VJ to a big 5 year contract we most likely would have released him after year 3. That's because for sure we would have back loaded the contract with a huge salary that would not have been guaranteed. In return we would have taken a cap hit of perhaps $5 or $6M to release him.

Speculation...

Now in three years time the cap is likely to increase and I'd bet that $5/6M won't look like such a big deal compared to the hit we're taking on the field for lack of a true #1 WR and what it will now take to get one either through the draft or yuc another FA aquisition.

Base an argument off your speculation...

Of course that's getting ahead of ourselves so we won't know for a while.
But my opinion we should have paid VJ.
Apologies for the formating...it was much easier to analyze in a table format...go to spotrac.com for it...

I understand what your saying...but, the numbers suggest it is all wrong...your conclusion is however debatable as a savings of 5375000 over three years may not be worth the loss of VJ...remains to be seen...that 5375000 will go elsewhere though, and then you would have to account for those player(s) as part of the VJ equivalent...
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  #200  
Old 11-30-2012, 03:14 PM
charger1_sj charger1_sj is offline
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Apologies for the formating...it was much easier to analyze in a table format...go to spotrac.com for it...

I understand what your saying...but, the numbers suggest it is all wrong...your conclusion is however debatable as a savings of 5375000 over three years may not be worth the loss of VJ...remains to be seen...that 5375000 will go elsewhere though, and then you would have to account for those player(s) as part of the VJ equivalent...
Next year we are treating Meachem's guaranteed money as salary so $5M.
If we want Royal back $3M. That's $8M + $15M = $23M VJ's guaranteed was $26M. Meach + Royal guaranteed = $20M. That's really the only numbers that count. If we don't want Royal back then it will cost us $5M next year. In that case we wasted $6M on Royal since he's been unproductive this year. If Meach is a bust next year we wasted $14M.
Total waste $20M if they don't work out.

Your conclusions about VJ are wrong because we would not have structured his deal the way the Bucs did. Most of his bonus money would have been paid as part of his guarantee. For the cap that money would be spread out. VJ is 30, no question (outside of the bonus money) we would have back loaded his contract and he never would have seen a dime of it. That's what happens to 34 year old receivers in the NFL. For RBs it happens at 30. Of course we would have taken the cap hit. But remember that's 4 years removed from now when the cap is sure to go up.

Now I concede and already have that there was no way of knowing that Meach and Royal would not work out. But that's exactly why you don't break what was working. We should have paid VJ. If he was worth $11M and the F-Tag he was worth that much the next year. When he drops off he's gone. That's the way of the NFL.

Last edited by charger1_sj; 11-30-2012 at 03:19 PM..
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